Anyways! I was thinking last night about the whole lying thing and how people focus on that when Dom was Bad Rude Man (that's a Spike line, btw). See, I love that. For me it's the crux of the entire relationship. Because I don't trust anyone, not even my dad, though he's the closest I come to trusting another person. I think that basically everyone will fuck you over if you give them the slightest bit of trust. And I can see that in Dom, all the time, throughout the movie, and yet he ends up trusting Brian, having faith in him, knowing he shouldn't. That struggle is writ large on his face.
It's an interesting way to approach the text. (Or subtext.) I pretty much trust everyone unless they give me reason not to, and even when I find them in some kind of breach of trust, it's by degrees; i.e., if you lie to me were you trying to protect me, yourself, something else, or was it tied into some sense of self-worth or self esteem that you thought by lying you'd get my approval or hide some flaw of my own. I'm not saying it's necessary or even something I like, but I figure most people are more like me than not, that they are doing the best they can with what they know. So, there's a lot of give in my relationships for the most part __ I think I cut people a lot of slack and to some extent I expect it to be reciprocated -- that is, if I do something/say something you don't like, please don't assume it was done out of malice or vindictiveness or even carelessness. I just don't *expect* people to fuck me over because they can…I expect them to treat me about like they want to be treated. Just as I generally find that if I like someone (in the friendship style like or even friendly acquaintance kind of like) they probably like me back, or at least find me tolerable enough to not run away when they see me coming.
On the other hand, I do expect a certain amount of honesty from people. So, Brian's lying to Dom doesn’t bother me as much for what it is as much as I'm more interested in, as you say, how it affects their relationship -- and I think it's reciprocal. Because Dom isn't entirely honest with Brian either. I mean, granted, Brian never comes out and asks him if he's hijacking trucks, but at the same time, when Dom is going along, being kind of enchanted by Brian, or even when he thinks Mia and Brian might actually be the real thing, he's kind of testing Brian about without actually telling him why. So the levels of honestly there are not so curt and dried as ooh, look Brian lied to Dom. Well, duh.
So, out of the actual text of the movies there's a lot to play with…no matter how you approach Dom and Brian getting together. I find it a slightly harder sell for Dom to think there's any higher ground for him to stand on if accusing Brian of lying to him about who he is, when he's into shit that could (and eventually does) get people hurt and killed. It's not an impossible sell, mind you…but for Dom to call Brian on his honesty, he'd need ot own up to his own failings too.
Leonard Nimoy and I was dead! Dead, I tell you!) I have waited for a fandom I could write that sort of "not everything was a lie" aftermath around. Because you would always be full of doubts, and you can never really truly know another person, and if they lied to you from the beginning... regardless of who you were, that would kill you. You'd never know if they truly loved *you.*
I kind of like those too in an odd way, but again I think it's more my optimism of trying to find silver in a dark cloud as opposed to the tortured not knowing part.
I'm starting to think the rest of it just wants sex, but... I love this core issue of trust and betrayal and where love can find a place to stand within it.
Clarify? Do you mean you think the rest of your concentration on this want sex [g] or the fandom is more interested in the sexy sweaty part?
Re: So, Gwyn...
It's an interesting way to approach the text. (Or subtext.) I pretty much trust everyone unless they give me reason not to, and even when I find them in some kind of breach of trust, it's by degrees; i.e., if you lie to me were you trying to protect me, yourself, something else, or was it tied into some sense of self-worth or self esteem that you thought by lying you'd get my approval or hide some flaw of my own. I'm not saying it's necessary or even something I like, but I figure most people are more like me than not, that they are doing the best they can with what they know. So, there's a lot of give in my relationships for the most part __ I think I cut people a lot of slack and to some extent I expect it to be reciprocated -- that is, if I do something/say something you don't like, please don't assume it was done out of malice or vindictiveness or even carelessness. I just don't *expect* people to fuck me over because they can…I expect them to treat me about like they want to be treated. Just as I generally find that if I like someone (in the friendship style like or even friendly acquaintance kind of like) they probably like me back, or at least find me tolerable enough to not run away when they see me coming.
On the other hand, I do expect a certain amount of honesty from people. So, Brian's lying to Dom doesn’t bother me as much for what it is as much as I'm more interested in, as you say, how it affects their relationship -- and I think it's reciprocal. Because Dom isn't entirely honest with Brian either. I mean, granted, Brian never comes out and asks him if he's hijacking trucks, but at the same time, when Dom is going along, being kind of enchanted by Brian, or even when he thinks Mia and Brian might actually be the real thing, he's kind of testing Brian about without actually telling him why. So the levels of honestly there are not so curt and dried as ooh, look Brian lied to Dom. Well, duh.
So, out of the actual text of the movies there's a lot to play with…no matter how you approach Dom and Brian getting together. I find it a slightly harder sell for Dom to think there's any higher ground for him to stand on if accusing Brian of lying to him about who he is, when he's into shit that could (and eventually does) get people hurt and killed. It's not an impossible sell, mind you…but for Dom to call Brian on his honesty, he'd need ot own up to his own failings too.
Leonard Nimoy and I was dead! Dead, I tell you!) I have waited for a fandom I could write that sort of "not everything was a lie" aftermath around. Because you would always be full of doubts, and you can never really truly know another person, and if they lied to you from the beginning... regardless of who you were, that would kill you. You'd never know if they truly loved *you.*
I kind of like those too in an odd way, but again I think it's more my optimism of trying to find silver in a dark cloud as opposed to the tortured not knowing part.
I'm starting to think the rest of it just wants sex, but... I love this core issue of trust and betrayal and where love can find a place to stand within it.
Clarify? Do you mean you think the rest of your concentration on this want sex [g] or the fandom is more interested in the sexy sweaty part?