Down to the Wire

[gwyn]

I'm in a monstrously grumptastic mood today, and one of the things I was thinking about this morning while grumbling through getting ready for work is how annoyed I am by the disappearance of conversation in my fannish life, how few people want to actually talk about anything and how the disparity between the fannish consumer and the fannish producer has grown even more pronounced and how much I hate that (the idea that because someone isn't a writer or vidder they have no intrinsic value sends me into a frenzy of anger), and mostly, how much I resent the fact that I have no more shows to review. That was the defining thing for me in starting this LJ: the chance to write the meta, generate discussion (even if sometimes the discussions haven't been pleasant), review and critique and dissect, and I have nothing to do that with anymore. Because of the asshat executives who cancelled both Firefly and Angel, the best shows -- the Jossverse -- for reviews are gone, and there is nothing currently airing that I either enjoy, or that is the kind of show worth reviewing. Much as I love Gilmore Girls, for instance, it's not a reviewy show the way Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were for me.

I don't like Lost (mark my words, JJ Abrams will only bring you heartache and misery) and only endure it for Naveen Andrews, and even with Alias and some new eps of Spooks/MI-5 and 24 coming up, I doubt there will really be anything reviewy there either. The only things I've had the slightest passing interest in this year are Kevin Hill (watchable solely for the luscious Taye Diggs), and Veronica Mars, but it doesn't always hold my interest, and isn't so far a review the next day type show. I miss the discussion, the analysis, the whole... fun of picking things apart and looking for deeper meanings. It makes me grumpy that I haven't got anything like that. The Shield will also be coming up, but... they lost me a while ago and now I watch more out of loyalty than anything. I loathe and despise the crime procedurals with the white hot fury of a thousand burning suns, but have to watch the despicable and cretinous CSI:NY for my favorite actor, Gary Sinise. The only procedural I give a crap about is Without a Trace and it's more a tribute to that cast and the personal storylines than anything else.

The best things are all on pay cable, which I can't afford. I will be waiting for the S2 discs of Dead Like Me, for a while, I'm sure, but look forward to seeing it; can't wait to watch Carnivale on something better than the horrible rainbowed dark and murky tapes we saw first season on, and eagerly await the ability to view the second season. The idea of more Deadwood is thrilling, too. But none of these are shows I can sink teeth into because I often won't see them for months and months and months after they air. One of my favorite discoveries so far is The Wire. I really like this series and am only to episode 5. I wish I'd had the chance to watch this series as it aired; it would have been interesting to review, especially because I have no idea half the time what's happening. I can't keep about 2/3 of the characters straight, and especially the different gang street wars confuse me, as do the relationships of the hateful, venal cops that McNulty battles with. (Plus, crime! While I'm writing a crime-based WIP, it's enormously helpful as research material.)

But when I get what's going on, what a wing-ding of a show it is. It's also one of the few shows I've seen that deals with homosexuality on a fairly realistic basis and challenges assumptions about its acceptance in these very tough, often discriminatory worlds. Not they don't also play it for a little prurient interest, as well, but it's fairer than most other shows could hope to be. Omar, the one criminal character who seems to be on opposite sides of the Barksdale group, in particular fascinates me: his elaborate cornrows and his cool facial scar; his obvious tender love of his boyfriend in a world where a homosexual man is most decidedly not welcome; his sarcastic wit and wary perspicacity; his amusing idiosyncracies such as not wanting his boyfriend to swear because it's uncouth and his friendliness to the cops... I could watch him alone on this show and be happy. I've never seen a young black male character, especially a drug-dealing homicidal thug, portrayed like this, and I'm mesmerized not just by the role but by the actor (and his boyfriend, as well). I have a bad feeling subsequent episodes will bring bad things for him, but I'm enjoying these, anyway.

I also like the lesbian cop McNulty works with, whose name totally escapes me right now. The actress is up and down, not always on top of the role, but the character has a really unusual background and relationships with people that I've never seen before, especially when most shows would just have her be the dyke cop in the background. Anyway, I have quite a few more S1 discs to get through, and am looking forward to seeing Aiden Gillen when he arrives. But this is the first show that feels rich enough in characters and story arcs to be a review-worthy outside of Deadwood, but like Deadwood, I'm seeing these so much later that I never have the chance to get down and dirty with them. I miss that, a lot. Most of the time I don't miss the grind of movie reviewing, but sometimes I do, and have been feeling the loss of writing my little post-ep TV reviews in LJ a lot this fall. The Wire is definitely a series worth that kind of attention. I'm almost thinking of investing in the discs becuase it would make such a great vidding show, as well, but I'll have to think about that.

Comments

[jackiekjono.livejournal.com]

Cheer up! Just two more weeks and all of the January shows start! There is one that looks promising a that seems to be a Baretta rip-off. There's another one that seems to be some sort of horror pastiche with lots of nifty effects. Yippee!

Is it weird that I'm more excited about the January shows starting than I was about Christmas in Vegas?

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'm also the kiss of death for shows, so if there are some good Jan. shows, I'm terrified I will jinx them by falling for them!

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

y'know...i've been trying to put my finger on what has change on my flist, and part of it is that people move to different fandoms and part is that i have a lot of folks friended just b/c of my flocked journal whom i'm not really that intersted in..but it wasn't untill reading your post just now that i realized that the actual show discussions are missing...i mean, i like reading them even if i'm not a huge fan of the show (well, except for lost :-) but there is very little left...we so need a wheedon show :-) or at least something to combine us in a way that certain shows did..even if you weren't reading/writing in it, you more than likely watched it (i always think of XF and BtVS as two such shows...)

i'm watching SV, VM, and CSI every week, but none of them make me wanna write (well, SV sometimes...)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I mean, it's not that people didn't comment on Buffy or Angel with one or two lines of OMG I lvoed it! or something. But in general I felt there was more going on there than currently, and I also find that the larger fandom has become, the less conversation happens. The writers are all busy churning out their drabbles by the pound, and everything is directed toward feedbacking them; LJ isn't conducive to lengthy conversational threads... I dunno. I just am missing that whole environment. There's a lot of volume, but it all just sounds like static at times.

[kathyh]

and mostly, how much I resent the fact that I have no more shows to review.

I do know what you mean. From a British point of view I would say that Spooks/MI5 this season is fascinating for various reasons so I wouldn't write it off. We've also been lucky enough to see Battlestar Galactica first and I'd highly recommend that. Nothing has quite made up for the loss of the Jossverse though...

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'm looking forward to the MI-5 eps. But... Tom! Ack! Though it will be nice to finally have a chance to see them after hearing so much.

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

There is a sense of being adrift, isn't there? I am no longer anchored by my weekly TV schedule -- there is nothing really to look forward to, and I just aimlessly drift, flipping through the channels. I'm trying to make that a good thing, by looking into other fandoms and non-TV-related pastimes (noooooo!), but it's kind of lonely. The only things I watch now are on FX - Nip/Tuck, The Shield, and Rescue Me (with the strangely attractive Dennis Leary), but they seem to only run one at a time, and the schedules are erratic.

I haven't seen Lost yet, but last week I read what appears to be the single best piece of lotrips fic in existence (because everything I've read since then has been rather disappointing), and am going to watch on Wednesday to see Dom. Are you going to watch, too, despite your forebodings?

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I watched Lost since the beginning, but... I don't share the love everyone i know has for it. Except Naveen... I've been hot for him for years. It's weird, I feel like I'm looking at a nekkid emperor or something, and I cannot see the cool new threads everyone else sees. I find it contrived and boring and too coy for it's own good. Maybe someone can hypnotize me at Escapade and make me see what everyone else sees. Becuase it certainly seems like THE fannish program right now. I used to know the days of the week by what was on the previous night. Now half the time I can't remember what day it is!

[maubast.livejournal.com]

Jumping around a little bit:

but have to watch the despicable and cretinous CSI:NY for my favorite actor, Gary Sinise.

Isn't it just a pathetic show? I love him, but I couldn't endure it. I really couldn't.

CSI: M lost me when Rory Cochrane left (even though I still like the cast a great deal but I hated the way they killed off Rory's character). Now I watch CSI:M if I think of it, or if my parents talk me into it. The only show I watch without fail is NCIS, because of David McCallum, Pauley Perrette and Sean Murray.

I'm sort of a strange fannish person in the sense I don't really like television much. Okay, very little at all.

I'm in a monstrously grumptastic mood today

I was yesterday so it must be going around. *hugs*

the disaprity between the fannish consumer and the fannish producer has grown even more pronounced and how much I hate that (the idea that because someone isn't a writer or vidder they have no intrinsic value sends me into a frenzy of anger)

Wow. I had no idea people acted like that. Call me sheltered, but... that's not cool. I mean, as a fanzine publisher, I get complaints about certain things, but I would never think that just because someone isn't a vidder/writer/publisher/what have you, they have no value to the fannish world. So not cool.

*hugs*

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Re the value thing, the weirdest part? The people who often say that are the ones who think they have no value because they are "just consumers." I can't tell you how many people have sent feedback to me and told me they never wrote before becuse they didn't think they had anything worthwhile to say since they aren't writers or vidders. And worse, a lot of BNFs have only encouraged this sort of thing -- quashing discussions on lists, etc because only the big writers have any value, you know.

I've seen sensible, smart women encourage this sort of disparity and then disingenuously say they aren't BNFs and oh I never asked for this status blah blah... it's so dispiriting to watch people do that. As fandom's gotten larger and larger, the focus has shifted primarily to the producers -- especially the prolific and vocal producers -- and the "just consumers" now think they have no voice or right or need to speak up. It just frosts me, because those are the people whose opinions and feedback and input I value most. but so many people encourage this "I don't know the details/skills/arcane knowledge of this" response that I think it's endemic to fandom. the fans of fans thing also leaves me really cold, because I think it's an outgrowth of this syndrome.

I need to write about this more at length, and I know I'll get flamed by some of my friends because we've had heated discussions before, but... I feel like I need to get this off my chest. without the consumers, the writers would have a pretty small audience. That larger group is way more important.

[umbo.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

Can I just say that the mere idea of you getting into The Wire excites me like you wouldn't believe? I haven't actually seen season 1 yet, as I started watching last year and haven't invested in the discs yet, but it is *such* an amazing show, and I would *love* to see you reviewing it! Omar really is an amzing character, and Kima (the lesbian cop) is pretty cool too, but for me the most fascinating is Stringer Bell. Then again, I'm not sure what all he was up to in the first season.

But I do so wish there were another Wheadon show on. What would you think about going back and watching episodes again and writing review from that?

*more hugs*

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

There's definitely a lot of H:LotS in the Wire, isn't there? Stringer doesn't really ring a bell yet for me... but I'm only five eps in.

I am actually sorry I returned the disc today. Because now I'm wishing I could watch omar again. He's just... astonishing. I am madly in love! In a fascinating character way, not a BSO way.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I would love to read your reviews of "The Wire" - I started watching with Season 2 and haven't seen Season 1 yet, but it's definitely a show that rewards thinking and rich analysis and Season 2 was absolutely brilliant (I was less fond of the recently concluded Season 3, but part of that may change when I rewatch and see how everything comes together!) More than any other TV show I've ever seen (including the Jossverse ones!) "The Wire" is like an incredibly engrossing novel, and you have to watch all the way to the end of each season before stuff makes sense, I think.

The actress you're thinking of is Sonja Sohn, I believe, and Kima becomes a much more interesting character. McNulty is always and forever fascinating (and Dominic West is quite the hottie as I can attest having spoken to him at a booksigning recently!)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of annoyed that I have to go away for a bit and won't be able to watch the next disc in the series for a while. Because Omar... whoa. I really liked Dominic West in The Forgotten, and he's great here -- every once in a while that accent slips, but he's otherwise note perfect. And hot!

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Wishing for more meta as well. Should start writing some more myself. But ack, Exam looming. Le sigh.

[elz.livejournal.com]

I've got my fingers crossed that the new version of Battlestar Galactica will inspire lots of meta and fannish chatter (although I know a fair number of people on lj won't watch it because it's too science fictiony), especially since I can't afford HBO or Showtime either. I've felt like a bit of a slacker this year, only writing two-line reactions (if that) to Veronica Mars and Lost, but the truth is that you can't fake the kind of enthusiasm that makes you *want* to talk about a show in any sort of depth. I miss it, though, especially since I'm not a 'producer' of any sort and, yeah, it's easy to start to feel superfluous.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing Edward James Olmos on TV again regularly. I hope it will produce that enthusiasm -- and in some respects, maybe as sci-fi, it will, because there seems to be more tolerance and openness to genre in fandom than there is for things like crime and family type stuff.

Well, if you don't count your stunning icons as producing, I don't know what to call it! Because you've certainly given me many favorites and much pleasure with them.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Now that you are off dialup and on high-speed 'net, have you thought about doing the bittorrent-type thing for downloading new episodes? That could solve your problem about having to wait for new episodes of premium cable shows.

You might also think about pimping people into fandoms you already enjoy, and want other people to get into. I mean, look at me: TFaTF, Mag 7, Second Sight (hell, Clive Owen in general), Firefly, a Mulder/Skinner perspective of XF, and I'm working up to LFN. You've pimped without even trying, just from me coming over and hanging out. I would never have known about Second Sight had you not had it playing one day when I arrived. Maybe I'm just easy, but I think you should give the old pimping game a shot. For instance, after watching your Keen Eddie vid, I'd love to hear more about that, and you haven't said boo yet.

Damn, I'm sort of liking this idea. Maybe I should do a ship manifesto for Herger/Ahmed from The Thirteenth Warrior?

Sorry the feedback thing is still preying on your mind. I'd kick some ass if it didn't result in bigger problems.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

sandrine's post elsewhere on my f-list just reminded me: we HAVE to watch Brotherhood of the Wolf sometime.

[just-eunice.livejournal.com]

The Wire! *clings to you*

I think I might die of happiness if an actual fandom grew out of that show, I love it so.

I can't keep about 2/3 of the characters straight, and especially the different gang street wars confuse me, as do the relationships of the hateful, venal cops that McNulty battles with

This is on purpose, and it's part of the style of the show that I find so fascinating. Each season begins with a scattershot of events and characters that aren't always connected in immediately identifiable ways, and often seem random. Lots of them. As the season progresses the tension ratchets up as the lines between them become clearer and start drawing together until everything, and I do mean *everything*, collects in on itself into one climactic point that finishes off the season in mindblowing fashion.

Until you start the next season where the loose threads left over, and the core cast, are joined by a whole *new* set of scattershot events and characters that leave you going, "Hey! I just figured out what was going on, stop that! And what the hell does *this* have to do with x?" Season 2 is particularly good at starting you out with a big old "What the fuck?" and then nailing you right between the eyes as it all starts to come clear and ties back into season 1.

So, yeah. You're supposed to be confused and overwhelmed by the massive amounts of information and characters getting thrown at you to start with. I still have a bunch of season 3 episodes to catch up with, but it seems to be following the same pattern, even as it returns to familiar ground (vague enough for you? don't want to spoil).

Also, OMAR!

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I have a terrible feeling that this is the kind of show I'm going to have to watch again after I've finished it. Deadwood was like that; I found it very hard to warm to at first, and I love westerns -- it was a really unlovable show to me. As we kept going on, though, we realized we were missing a lot, and when we finished our first run through, we watched it again and were blown away. I think The Wire is going to be like that -- I wasn't sure if I was enjoying everything until the fifth episode, and the stuff with Omar just knocked me over. When he and his boyfriend and... lieutenant, I guess, set those other dealers up and ambushed them in the alley, I was really amazed, and then that scene with D'Angelo and his girlfriend at dinner... they hooked me big time. So my plan is to watch the rest of the eps and then either rent them again, or see if I might be able to get a set somehow. If for no other reason than Omar, but McNulty's a pretty big benefit, too. ;-)

I know so many people who just dimiss crime dramas out of hand, and I think they're going to miss a lot. At least I might be able to lure the slash fans with talk about Omar.

The Wire....

[melinafandom.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite discoveries so far is The Wire.

Discoveries?!? ::sniff:: Nobody listens to me! I have been pimping (http://www.livejournal.com/users/melina123/7878.html) this show since, like, forever (http://www.livejournal.com/users/melina123/36657.html).

Anyway :) I am glad you are enjoying it. I almost wish I'd had the chance to watch it on DVD when I saw it the first time, just to keep the pacing better. Don't worry too much about keeping track of everyone -- the important characters sort themselves out in time. (Mostly :)

It's hard to explain why I like The Wire, really, except that it's like an antidote to all those shows I've ever watched that assumed the audience was stupid, or didn't pay attention, and needed things repeated and spoon-fed to them. I like the complexity and the ambiguity and the fact that it demands my complete attention in the ways that most shows simply do not.

I think you won't be the only person watching the show for the first time on DVD, and you should feel free to review if you want! I'd be interested in reading your take on things.

Links of possible interest:

-- My report on The Wire at the Paley Festival last year (no spoilers) (http://www.livejournal.com/users/melina123/18551.html#cutid3).

-- A great article about The Wire at Salon (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/10/01/the_wire/index.html) -- exhaustively cataloging the characters, among other things. It does have spoilers. (You must watch an ad for a day pass, blah blah.)

-- David Simon and George Pelacanos did an interesting interview on Fresh Air on 9/23/04. You should be able to find it here (http://freshair.npr.org/) with a date or keyword search. I don't recall any spoilers -- it's more about the show in general.

Re: The Wire....

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I know, I know! But I didn't have a way to see it before! It was only recently that Jo started doing the bit torrent thing and I didn't feel good about asking her to DL stuff just for me. Though I think I can pimp it to her now that I've watched it; I think it's just up her alley.

I will definitely check the links. If for no other reason than that the more I read about it, the more I will be able to get the names straight of all the damn characters!

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I miss the shows, too, and writing about them. My big impediment now is lack of time, though, not lack of interest (and I confess I'm really frustrated to be on vacation but not have access to my DVDs, so I can't even take advantage of the down time to write any of the approximately 6,843,147 essays I've got ideas for). I'm feeling really disconnected from those few conversations that do continue on, too, because I am tired of the same old arguments and mostly just keep my mouth shut when people say things I object to. I am hungry for stories, but then a lot of the stories that I do read disappoint or annoy me because I disagree with some of the basic interpretations of character or story or whatever.

Maybe I've just grown crotchety in my old age. Heh.

I know what you mean about the emphasis on producers; it's been that way since I got involved, at least. I personally got the BNF smackdown very early on in my fandom career, more than once, and so I quickly learned to shut up and leave well enough alone. I have my own issues about writing anyway, especially fiction, so I was easily convinced that it was Not My Place to comment on certain things, at least in public.

However, I have been consumed by this one particular idea, and have decided it's useless to fight it. So I am just going to dive in and see what happens, nervous as I am. I'm not sure it will make me a bona fide "producer," since it's kind of an oddball grey-area thing, but at least I'll be playing in fandom instead of just sitting around missing it.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'm thrileld to hear that you're thinking of doing something. You will have an eager and willing helpmeet in me if you need anything at all -- sounding board, edit, anything.

I think the emphasis on producers has always been around, but in medieval times, the only real way into fandom was to participate. You could order zines, read APAs, go to cons, and still be a quiet mouse in the corner, but you had to have some level of active contact with others. Which tends to by necessity improve the odds of conversation. Particularly if you were from an area where you didn't have other fans around you -- to trade tapes, zines, etc. You had to make more of an effort and make more contact, and people had to do the same to you. Things are much more anonymous now, you can have thousands of people read your story, for instance, and never know they are there. You will never be able to find out about mutualities with other people. There's nothing but a big black sucking hole for 99% of the fannish world.

And to me that's sad, and kind of demoralizing. The hallmark of fandom for decades, since the sci-fi novel fans way back when, has been dialog and connection and analysis and participation. It's just gone in large part now. I guess to others it's meaningless, but to me, it's a loss.

[smithereen.livejournal.com]

I've been in kind of the same boat you have in terms of looking around going...where are all the shows to get obsessively fannish over? I watch Veronica Mars and Lost and all the stuff everyone's getting into lately, but it just doesn't grab me in a fannish way. There are plenty of shows on TV I like, but none (except oddly, One Tree Hill) that I LOVE or that I feel a real urge to talk about. I'm sort of transferring my obsessiveness onto anime right now, but I think some of the reason for that is just that the tv shows I'm watching aren't giving me enough to sink my teeth into. And anime, while arguably on crack half the time, is constantly intriguing me with the boundaries it crosses (especially in terms of sexuality), the quality of ongoing story arcs, the creativity of its storytelling, and the depth of its characters. Granted, I think once I've seen more shows certain conventions and cliches within the genre will start to wear on me. But right now it feels like....ah ha! something new! something to think about! and I just don't get that feeling from any of the tv I'm watching right now.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my friends who've really gotten into anime tell me similar things. I have the weirdest disconnect with comics and anime -- I love them both (I mean, I love them!) but not in a fannish way. Like, I can't see reading fic or vidding or writing... I have no idea why. Though if they ever made an animated version of The Authority (or Dark Knight or Watchmen) I could see vidding... for some reason I seem to only connect on a fannish level with live action characters. I can't figure out why, it makes no sense to me. So I'm envious of the people who get that out of the anime and manga world, becuase it seems to be a really happening place right now.

[tir.livejournal.com]

Ooh, The Wire! This is a show that needs more fans. Anytime you're wondering how people are connected or who's who, feel free to ask me. I've watched obsessively since day one. Maybe by fourth season there will be enough people caught up that we can build some community around the show.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

This is always the problem with HBO shows, isn't it? (Or showtime as well). There are still so many people who can't or won't do the bit torrent things, and few people can afford them, and they have to wait for the discs to come out. We used to get tapes from people who had HBO of some shows, but they were always crappy and hard to watch. I guess that makes DVDs worth waiting for.

But I think I am scarily in love with Omar. And now I know what happens to his boyfriend and I'm afraid to keep watching! But I am compelled.

So, Maygra...

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Anyways! I was thinking last night about the whole lying thing and how people focus on that when Dom was Bad Rude Man (that's a Spike line, btw). See, I love that. For me it's the crux of the entire relationship. Becuase I don't trust anyone, not even my dad, though he's the closest I come to trusting another person. I think that basically everyone will fuck you over if you give them the slightest bit of trust. And I can see that in Dom, all the time, throughout the movie, and yet he ends up trusting Brian, having faith in him, knowing he shouldn't. That struggle is writ large on his face.

And whether you're a criminal or a doctor/lawyer/merchant chief, if you fell in love with someone whose whole existence in your life was a lie, how would you feel? I can't imagine anyone, whatever their occupation and whether we agree that it's a good or bad one, feeling really perky about that. So for me that emphasis on Brian's cover and how betrayed Dom would feel is the most enjoyable part of the fandom. I like especially playing with the notion that Dom couldn't really know what would be real and what wasn't, especially since Brian is such a blank slate in many ways (well, yeah, I already am playing with that, I realize).

See... I have this terrible weakness for "it wasn't all a lie" stories. HUGE. I've waited all my fannish life for one of these! From the first time my little nascent fannish mind saw that kind of story (on of all things The FBI, where this criminal had to dupe this woman and he fell in love and when Efram Zimbalist was hauling him away the guy looked at the broken hearted woman and you knew -- you knew! -- that it wasn't all a lie and he tried to tell her but she wouldn't listen; then they did it on Mission Impossible with Leonard Nimoy and I was dead! Dead, I tell you!) I have waited for a fandom I could write that sort of "not everything was a lie" aftermath around. Because you would always be full of doubts, and you can never really truly know another person, and if they lied to you from the beginning... regardless of who you were, that would kill you. You'd never know if they truly loved *you.*

I think you were investigating La Femme Nikita for AU scenarios, weren't you? Did you see the episode War? Where Michael, who's lied to Nikita continually, finally goes one step too far and she doesn't really believe that he loves her, so she thinks he's just despicable, and then at the end when she's unconscious he says his variation on "it wasn't all a lie." It took years for her to get over that and she never heard him tell her that it wasn't a lie that he loved her. And so I keep thinking of that with Dom and Brian, that Dom wouldn't really know or trust that he could believe it wasn't all part of the setup.

This makes me freakishly happy (obviously, as I'm wasting thousands of words writing about it now), but it is, for me, the entire heart of their relationship. Whatever Dom is -- criminal, psycho, thug... however you view him -- his relationship with Brian is completely predicated on a lie, but underneath that lie is this huge iceberg of other important stuff. Can they find that? For me that's the greatest fun of this fandom. Though I'm starting to think the rest of it just wants sex, but... I love this core issue of trust and betrayal and where love can find a place to stand within it.

Re: So, Gwyn...

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Anyways! I was thinking last night about the whole lying thing and how people focus on that when Dom was Bad Rude Man (that's a Spike line, btw). See, I love that. For me it's the crux of the entire relationship. Because I don't trust anyone, not even my dad, though he's the closest I come to trusting another person. I think that basically everyone will fuck you over if you give them the slightest bit of trust. And I can see that in Dom, all the time, throughout the movie, and yet he ends up trusting Brian, having faith in him, knowing he shouldn't. That struggle is writ large on his face.

It's an interesting way to approach the text. (Or subtext.) I pretty much trust everyone unless they give me reason not to, and even when I find them in some kind of breach of trust, it's by degrees; i.e., if you lie to me were you trying to protect me, yourself, something else, or was it tied into some sense of self-worth or self esteem that you thought by lying you'd get my approval or hide some flaw of my own. I'm not saying it's necessary or even something I like, but I figure most people are more like me than not, that they are doing the best they can with what they know. So, there's a lot of give in my relationships for the most part __ I think I cut people a lot of slack and to some extent I expect it to be reciprocated -- that is, if I do something/say something you don't like, please don't assume it was done out of malice or vindictiveness or even carelessness. I just don't *expect* people to fuck me over because they can…I expect them to treat me about like they want to be treated. Just as I generally find that if I like someone (in the friendship style like or even friendly acquaintance kind of like) they probably like me back, or at least find me tolerable enough to not run away when they see me coming.

On the other hand, I do expect a certain amount of honesty from people. So, Brian's lying to Dom doesn’t bother me as much for what it is as much as I'm more interested in, as you say, how it affects their relationship -- and I think it's reciprocal. Because Dom isn't entirely honest with Brian either. I mean, granted, Brian never comes out and asks him if he's hijacking trucks, but at the same time, when Dom is going along, being kind of enchanted by Brian, or even when he thinks Mia and Brian might actually be the real thing, he's kind of testing Brian about without actually telling him why. So the levels of honestly there are not so curt and dried as ooh, look Brian lied to Dom. Well, duh.

So, out of the actual text of the movies there's a lot to play with…no matter how you approach Dom and Brian getting together. I find it a slightly harder sell for Dom to think there's any higher ground for him to stand on if accusing Brian of lying to him about who he is, when he's into shit that could (and eventually does) get people hurt and killed. It's not an impossible sell, mind you…but for Dom to call Brian on his honesty, he'd need ot own up to his own failings too.

Leonard Nimoy and I was dead! Dead, I tell you!) I have waited for a fandom I could write that sort of "not everything was a lie" aftermath around. Because you would always be full of doubts, and you can never really truly know another person, and if they lied to you from the beginning... regardless of who you were, that would kill you. You'd never know if they truly loved *you.*

I kind of like those too in an odd way, but again I think it's more my optimism of trying to find silver in a dark cloud as opposed to the tortured not knowing part.

I'm starting to think the rest of it just wants sex, but... I love this core issue of trust and betrayal and where love can find a place to stand within it.

Clarify? Do you mean you think the rest of your concentration on this want sex [g] or the fandom is more interested in the sexy sweaty part?