Squandering Spike

[gwyn]

I’d mentioned that I had something to say about how Mutant Enemy never really understood what they had in the character of Spike and in James Marsters as an actor, and that too many people, including staff, chalked up the following he developed to mere “girls like bad boys” sophistry. After finally getting my season 4 DVDs late last week I watched a number of episodes with commentary tracks, and the feature interview with JM about Spike, and I’m more firmly convinced than ever that they clearly had no idea what they truly have — and wondering if it will change on Angel.


Doug Petrie’s comments in The Initiative convinced me of this, and David “Rape is funny!” Fury made it even worse in his deadly dull commentary (that man should never do comment tracks, ever). I normally like Petrie, but he said something I thought was key — that Spike is a horrible boyfriend, the worst boyfriend ever. Fury says, in the middle of his stultifying comments on Primeval, that Spike, no matter how good he tries to be and no matter what good deeds he accomplishes, is always going to be evil. He makes it very clear that, to him, Spike has no potential or positive qualities to build on. And Fury’s going to be in the Angel crew next year.

I’m not a Spike apologist — far from it. I liked him as he was prior to the soul; I preferred a guy who was without the usual human signatures we were supposed to believe meant something in the Buffyverse such as conscience, empathy, guilt, but who rose above limitations by choice to earn someone’s love. I never felt like that was a bad thing. The fact that he was essentially evil because he wasn’t possessed of a soul, but struggling against his nature for love (that reverse corruption thing I adore), made him fascinating to me. A lot of women are drawn to the bad boys simply because they’re naughty; but by reducing Spike’s appeal to that, saying that’s the only reason we like him, loses sight of a larger need that most people have for their fictional characters — someone struggling against their nature or struggling against the elements for a greater purpose, or to achieve something internally. It’s called conflict. Most good narratives have, at their heart, conflict in order for protagonists to achieve a goal — doesn’t matter if it’s solving a murder or just coming to terms with personal issues, it’s conflict, and it’s what drives us to follow stories. For Spike, the conflict came in what brought him to Sunnydale and to working with Buffy, later the chip, then falling for Buffy, then trying to discover what it meant to be good.

Oddly, JM seemed to get that to some degree. The comments he makes in the S4 feature Spike Me seem to indicate that he loved portraying all of Spike’s conflicts, his internal struggles, and he understood what made Spike tick. He calls Spike the best boyfriend ever, when he’s referring to what Spike did for Dru, and also what he’s willing to do for Buffy (the interview clearly takes place early in S6). Yet in direct contrast, the writers and other members of the creation team do not see Spike similarly — Joss is probably closest to how fans and JM see the character, but even he doesn’t say a lot about how much opportunity for conflict the character represented, or comment on Spike’s ambiguities. So the haphazard, scattershot writing of late S6 makes a sad kind of sense, because clearly, the character polarized the writing team — on one hand you’d get a positive take on his relationship to Buffy like Life Serial, then you’d get violent, out of character stuff like Dead Things, and we never knew which way they would go. They did the same disservice to Buffy herself. Over and over they talk about how fans were upset by the darkness of the show in S6, missing the point that a lot of people love darkness: if it was darkness that was at fault, it wouldn’t have been such an issue. What most fans do hate is character rape — destroying or messing with the characters they’ve come to know in service to a half-witted personal agenda (like Marti Noxon’s sex issues) — or haphazard, consistency-free writing.

A friend of mine once said something really interesting about Chris Carter and the X-Files: that he couldn’t replicate his success with other shows because he didn’t understand what it was he did right when he made XF in the first place. And while I think Joss knows that he created a really interesting and wonderful character in Spike (clearly, because they brought him back, and a number of people commented on the S2 discs that they had to bring him back for more than the originally slated eps because he was just so fun and they liked him so much), I don’t think he or any of the staff, particularly MN, got what it was that appealed so much to so many viewers. Almost as if they resented how much people liked him, so they reduced it to bad boy.

A lot of people are drawn only to the heroes, and a lot of people are drawn only to the bad guys. Bad guys are often fun, but even many people who normally like the hero types loved Spike. Maybe because he mirrors our own struggles in life, just in a more bizarre story. Most of us, whether we’re good or bad, are trying to make our existence as endurable as we can, trying to get what we can out of life. Spike was an avatar of our condition — no matter what type of protagonist we usually fell for, we could see this constant struggle for something else in Spike, and it made him really interesting to watch for a lot of folks. We could identify with his struggles, even if we weren’t normally drawn to that kind of character. In some respects his failings make him more malleable as a character, and it provides larger opportunities than more carefully delineated characters like Angel or Giles.

But I don’t believe the folks at ME ever understood that. They appear fixated on notions of black and white. You either have a soul and are human or human-like, and thus acceptable, or you don’t have a soul, and can’t seem to rise above that. In order to be loved, you must be human or have a soul — and can be forgiven the worst of sins if you do. (Unless you’re Spike.) A soul is a free pass, regardless of your atrocity; atoning for your atrocities, however, will likely earn you very little if you don’t have the soul. This is a very simplistic thing to hang your entire character development on if you don’t ever flesh out what the soul means, which ME never really did. The danced around the topic, but never really came out and said why everyone was fixated on the soul, especially when they could have in the alarming contrast between Warren and Spike in those final eps of S6.

Spike has no soul, and we are forced to watch him try to rape Buffy in a poorly executed attempt to remind us that, as Fury insists, Spike is always evil. Noxon said that we had to be reminded he was bad because people had forgotten (since, of course, he’d been struggling to be a better person), and this was their ham-fisted way of doing it. Anya, when she is a demon, is heartless and cruel; when she desires to atone for her vengeance act in Selfless, she becomes human again, but Halfrek, her dearest friend, is sacrificed for her atonement. Not Anya, herself, but her friend. And it’s never spoken of again, except in jest as a way to point out that Spike seems to get special treatment from Buffy. Xander tries to rape Buffy in one of the earliest episodes of the show, but he’s excused because a demon has inhabited him. As if, you know, a demon isn’t inhabiting Spike, and one didn’t inhabit Anya, either. Or Oz. Exceptions are made for the humans or the changed-to-human, an exception is made for soulled Angel, but none can be made for Spike, because it would not fit with ME’s weird agenda, an agenda that seemed to apply, strangely, only to this one character. He is not allowed to try to better himself without a soul. You simply must be human or have a soul to be allowed the chance to be loved or respected or achieve atonement.

The thing I never fully understood was what ME’s agenda was. It seems to be what JM is saying these days, reminding people that Spike is bad and trying to push back on girls fantasizing about a bad guy. Which is okay, I mean, I get why he’s a company man, but it’s ignoring a lot of his past beliefs about Spike, and it makes me sad that he would question his own acting in past seasons because of how things played out in service to ME’s agenda. (Especially Fool for Love — that he wishes he could take back those tears after Buffy throws the money at him is just terrible. That’s one of the most powerful, galvanizing scenes of any episode in the show’s history, and taking that away would have robbed it of much of its power). But it also means that a lot of what we’ll be hearing about Spike, one of the more complex characters on television, will be reductive. An actor’s take on a character has a lot to do with how he’s played. We can cite the scriptwriters all we want, and give credit for Joss’s creation, but the truth is that an actor has a lot of impact on how it plays out. A crappy, charisma-less actor in that role would have been gone within the three-episode allotment Spike originally had. There would have been little incentive to bring him back for arguably the best episode in season 3 or as a regular in 4. So having JM buy into the Mutant Enemy black and white world of the Buffy party line is sad, in that there’s too much potential for his character to stagnate if he’s afraid to push the envelope. I hope that’s not the case.

Watching the S4 eps, I realize that the one thing Spike never, ever got was dignity. The only time before Chosen he was ever allowed a shred of it was at the end of Intervention when Buffy recognizes what he did and what he was capable of. Sometimes the indignities and humiliations were incredibly funny, sometimes the effect was tragic and meaningful. But it’s a distancing mechanism — by not allowing him dignity, it’s easier for the audience to not feel for the character. But they miscalculated wildly, because so many people responded to him anyway. One of my all-time favorite Spike lines is “And you’re what, shocked and disappointed? I’m EVil.” I think ME kept trying to remind us of that in undignified ways, yet so many of us still ended up loving the guy for what he could be, because he kept acting in direct contrast to that through season 5. He does everything wrong, he suffers through indignity after humliation, but he keeps bouncing back up, mirroring what a lot of us go through in our daily lives.

It also served to polarize the people who liked Spike and Buffy together vs. the people who didn’t, and we’ve seen how the fandom suffers through that. What was sad about distancing us from him, and making his struggle to be good insignificant or, worse, worthless without the soul, was that they also squandered that incredible chemistry with Spike and Buffy together. Moviemakers spend jillions trying to pair big actors together in the hopes they’ll create chemistry and sell some romantic comedy or drama. SMG and JM had a powerful chemistry, whether as enemies or as friends/lovers; ME, however, seemed fixated on keeping the whole Angel & Buffy thing alive long after it was gone, even with Riley around. Instead of capitalizing on the kind of chemistry money can’t buy, they had to keep Spike uniformly unworthy of Buffy because to get her would diminish the importance of her human and soulled boyfriends. It would knock holes in the structure they set up, or something — that the soul and the humanity are the only things that make you good enough. Struggling of your own free will against your nature in order to be loved just won’t cut it in the Buffyverse.

Angel right now suffers from a few problems, but what they excel at is creating a world of moral ambiguity that closely reflects real life. Joss also managed to do this on Firefly: Mal was one of the most ambiguous “heroes” we’ve had on TV for a long time. He possessed both the best and worst of human nature; Jayne was a lying, cheating, mercenary scum. Yet they were given depths and layers and good qualities and allowed to be liked despite faults. River had the potential to cause serious problems, and did, but she was also allowed to be loved. On Angel, Wes has done some pretty bad things. Connor was just outright terrible. Angel himself has been Angelus three times now, yet we are still allowed to love him. So it’s peculiar to me that ME hasn’t allowed Buffy characters to live in the greyness that Firefly or Angel characters get to. Instead of enjoying and playing up Spike’s ambiguity and his moral quandaries as he struggles to find goodness without a soul, instead of showing us his reverse corruption by Buffy and the Scoobs, he’s pushed back into a box. Petrie, Noxon, Fury, all of them except apparently Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard, seem to see Spike as hopelessly evil — he’s on a straight line, no curves or twists allowed. And in case you forget that, we’ll remind you by making him a rapist or something equally reductive. We’re given wonderful character development like Buffy’s growing friendship and feelings for him in early season 6, but then we’re told she shouldn’t feel that way, and they shove something slimy in our face. We’re allowed to see the real guy underneath his exterior in Intervention (truly one of the best eps they’ve ever done in my opinion), just how depraved and how noble he can be, and Buffy’s allowed to see that, but they can’t let it last for long — people shouldn’t, they believe, react positively to it. If you see him as only evil, then affection for something evil must be quashed — it isn’t allowed to live in the Buffyverse.

The thing that makes a lot of people fall for someone like Spike is that they see potential for more in him. They saw that potential shown in Intervention, The Gift, Bargaining, After Life, etc. That’s ME’s success, and James’s success. They created a character who has potential — so it’s an absurd argument to maintain over and over that he’s merely evil and we shouldn’t be attracted to him. It’s not that girls always believe that bad boys can be cured by them. That’s an insulting way to reduce women’s desires, akin to saying that if women have fantasies about being ravaged, they want to be raped for real.

That kind of logic ignores the way humans relate to each other, how we find aspects of another person that are worthy of love. Good and bad coexist in most of us. If you insist that once you’ve been bad, you’ll always be bad, you’re limiting a person’s options completely. Over and over ME did things that grew Spike as a character, but each time they added layers, we were then told we shouldn’t like him. This talking out of both sides of their mouths was hard to handle for a lot of people (me, obviously, included). And I think that’s why a lot of people reacted so strongly to the things JM’s been saying lately — they may be hearing a message that tells them “don’t love bad boys, Spike is only a bad boy without the soul, you made a mistake.” That may not be what’s actually being said, but fans hear variations on this from ME all the time, so it starts to sound like the party line. And it’s hard to hear that if what we felt for the character wasn’t that simplistic.

I loved that he was a killer. I loved that he tried to reform for someone he loved and frequently failed. I adore that he was so complex you never knew which way he’d go. I wasn’t attracted to him because he was a bad boy, I was attracted to him because the bad things in him coexisted with good things and he knew it. I would never want to mitigate his past or pretend that he isn’t something he is, which is a demon, essentially. When Anya says in Family that many demons are productive members of society, it’s cute because she’s an ex-demon. But it’s also tied in to Spike and his history with the gang. For better or worse, whether he wants to or not, by early season 5 he’s becoming a productive member of that society. Despite their best efforts to tear that down and pretend that he’s still evil, ME couldn’t stop Spike’s following from growing, especially after Crush when we see him start to take steps to understand what he’s done wrong, and change. People wanted him around, and they wanted to see his struggle to be a productive member continue. It’s not about redemption, it’s about someone’s journey that we can identify with.

I worry that his time on Angel may erase a lot of what his story became on the show, simply because ME doesn’t get what he is. I think fans get what he is — or at least, not the schmoopy ones who want to turn him in Snuggles, but those of us who are fascinated by his brutal past and his current struggle to be a better man. It was interesting to watch his uphill battle because he was doing it of his own free will; I felt like the soul took away that free will, but ME is so fixated on the soul thing in the Buffyverse that it doesn’t allow anyone the chance to present a multi-layered character without one. Every time Spike got close to being that multi-layered character, they’d yank him back in his confined little corner.

On the other hand, they’ve allowed a lot of ambiguity in characters on Angel they never allowed in Buffy. Lilah, when she and Wes start up, becomes much more than evil and bitchy — she’s incredibly faceted by the time she dies. We learn to have sympathy for Connor’s plight even when he does increasingly more despicable things. We’re allowed to enjoy Angel as both Angelus and as soul boy. Lindsey got to be conflictedly evil, and Wes... well, Wes has shown more sides to his character than almost anyone outside of Spike, I think. So I’m both hopeful and filled with dread — will Fury, in his monochromatic view, see Spike in black and white again and force that down our throats? Will they just play up the bad boy aspects of Spike, without understanding that’s not the only thing that drew us to him? Will they get that the soul was an unnecessary accoutrement in his struggle for humanity, and focus more on his character rather than the device of the soul?

It’s so hard to say, because I don’t know that they really see him at all. It’s almost as if they can’t see the character they created and JM brought to indelible life — they are blinded by what their initial vision of him was, and his growth since then is invisible to their color-blind eyes. Don’t get me wrong if you read this far — I’m not all pissy with ME or the show or the characters. The S4 discs really brought home to me that they had no idea just what kind of quality Spike really had, and squandered so much potential. The show is still my favorite, ever, and the characters will always mean a great deal to me, but it’s confusing to me why they threw so much away and why their vision is so limited. There’s a peculiarly didactic quality to their need to force us to remember that Spike is bad and evil and wrong, as if we’re stupid girls who can’t tell the difference between a bad man and a good man. As deeply as I love this show and as immersed as I am in the fandom, I’m not sure I’ll ever understand why you’d squander so much potential just to lecture your audience. I'm mostly happy with what I got, but a little sad at what I never got to see.

Comments

[jidabug.livejournal.com]

Fury says, in the middle of his stultifying comments on Primeval, that Spike, no matter how good he tries to be and no matter what good deeds he accomplishes, is always going to be evil. He makes it very clear that, to him, Spike has no potential or positive qualities to build on. And Fury’s going to be in the Angel crew next year.

Ah, but these commentary tracks would have been done over a year ago (probably while filming S6). Fury has now gone on record on the Succubus Club a month or so ago and reversed much of his fomer anti-Spike stance. He said something to the effect that Spike was an unusual vampire, and probably still had a bit of his soul left from the very beginning...or something like that, my memory is fuzzy.

And Joss is a big with the Spike redemption and sacrifice vibe. His comments after the finale and with the announcement of Spike moving to AtS next season were along the lines that they didn't want to cheapen his growth and sacrifice when they brought him back.

I think cooler heads are prevailing at ME with regard to our boy, than they were back in S6 when all the S4 DVD stuff was put together. But then, I am an unabashed optimist about such things.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I'd heard some of Joss's statements (or at least read them in the TV Guide interview), but I hadn't heard about Fury (probably because I just tune out anything he says; I've really grown to hate him for a number of reasons) reversing his position.

I'm hopeful in some ways, but the thing that I'm not hopeful about is Spike's feelings and the whole love issue. Since that's mostly what I care about, I feel a bit lost, so it's hard for me to be as optimistic as you are. Maybe you can bottle some of your optimism and send it to me? I'll sprinkle it on every morning with my perfume and see if that helps. ;-)

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Most interesting post, Gwyn-- thanks, and I hope I'll be able to comment on it later!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post. ::applauds::

You pretty much covered how I feel about ME's attitude toward Spike. I appreciate your calm tone; whenever I try to post something like this, I can't seem to restrain the venom.

I think that my fascination with Spike comes partly because I'm really enthralled with the possibility of finding beauty within something that seems ugly or horrible. The music I listen to (I've haven't taken Alice in Chains' "Dirt" out of my CD player for like 6 months) seems ugly on the surface, but when you get deeply into such an intense passionate examination of humanity, you find so much beauty hidden in this pure form of expression. (Or maybe this is just me).

But it just seems like it's more valuable to find something beautiful or good hidden in ugliness than it is to find somewhere obvious. Like, when Xander does something good, it doesn't mean that much, because it's not a struggle for him; he's been raised that way, his friends support him, he has a "soul," etc. But when Spike does something good, it's so astounding, because he's going against everything he's ever been taught to be and doing something that no one believes him capable of. It means so much more, and it's so much more profound, because Spike truly has to struggle for it every inch of the way. And he does good for love, and he fights to change with his own free will; it's not just handed to him on a platter (well, until the soul, but when I speak fondly of Spike I always mean soulless Spike).

Okay, now I'm just babbling and I can't remember the point. But yeah, anyway, great post. :)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Thanks, hon. I know you've been struggling with your own feelings, so I'm glad I could say something of value for you.

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

There's so much in your post which echoes my feelings and thoughts about Spike since the end of season six.

Watching the S4 eps, I realize that the one thing Spike never, ever got was dignity.

Interesting observation. And, yeah, I tend to think this was one of the ways ME tried to keep him from becoming such an icon. We, Spike fans, though, we're a stubborn bunch.

For the past few years, Spike has felt like the most "normal" [non]member of the Buffy gang to me. He was the one whose trials and tribulations I identified most closely with and through whose eyes I watched the show. Mainly, because despite what life (in the form of outsiders or in the form of his own misguided actions) threw at him, he kept on keeping on.

Anyway, found this through a link in another's journal. Hope you don't mind me commenting. I also would like to link to this if it's alright. Thanks a ton for writing this. I wish you would submit it to a more widely read publication.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I'd be totally flattered to have you link. I always think I'm so full of shit that I do a little happy dance when anyone thinks I have something interesting to say! I'm really glad you did stop by!

[drujan.livejournal.com]

it’s confusing to me why they threw so much away and why their vision is so limited

Just WORD to your entire post. The wasted potential, the "what could have been" is killing me. I don't get it. The story was right there, under their noses - they wrote it! - and yet, ME acts as if it's the biggest mistake ever, and try to correct it, to make the audience see "their" vision of a much less interesting and unappealing worldview. Weird.

[muzakgurrl.livejournal.com]

Excellent, excellent post. You wrote out all the things that I feel about Spike and his ambiguities and story. I completely agree with you that it is hard to listen to what ME and the actors are saying when it is so different than what was portrayed on screen (apart from the few completely out-of-character scenes, which were a shame).

it makes me sad that he would question his own acting in past seasons because of how things played out in service to ME’s agenda. (Especially Fool for Love — that he wishes he could take back those tears after Buffy throws the money at him is just terrible. That’s one of the most powerful, galvanizing scenes of any episode in the show’s history, and taking that away would have robbed it of much of its power).

I particularly loved this point. Ever since I've read a few con reports of what was said at MR, this feeling on JM's part has been the main thing that bothered me, and I'm glad I'm not the only one. Thank you for putting all of these feelings to words.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really don't want him to second guess himself, because I admire him as an actor. Not in a "listen to his every word and follow him around" way, but as a person who loves the craft of acting and who really gets into discussing it and dissecting acting choices. He's way too talented to second guess himself; but hopefully on Angel he won't have to.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Bad guys are often fun, but even many people who normally like the hero types loved Spike.

It's the flawed heroes that people love. The tragic ones, that keep trying and trying and have to work bitterly for every victory. Spike is the ultimate Underdog, at evil and at good, so his character has great appeal.

Have you ever read The Hobbit? Bilbo Baggins is a wonderful, lovable protagonist-- and he's a lazy, whiny, stuffy, boring, shy, chubby, mostly useless little nag, whose only redeeming features are a soft heart and excellent common sense. A hero who isn't perfect is a great character-- in many ways that's why for the most part I liked Buffy from seasons 5-7 better than the earlier years (unlike everyone else), because in those seasons we see that she's not ideal glowing white hero with perfect hair and an easy rejoinder, but in fact has some royally fucked up problems. All back to sympathy. And Spike epitomized someone we felt bad for and hoped/wished had better luck.

It’s not that girls always believe that bad boys can be cured by them. That’s an insulting way to reduce women’s desires, akin to saying that if women have fantasies about being ravaged, they want to be raped for real.

I agree. What appealed to me about Spike's transformation was not that Buffy made Spike better by being the object of his love-- Spike made himself better by loving her. Buffy for the most part hindered, even forbid his change, not tried to change him.

I worry that his time on Angel may erase a lot of what his story became on the show, simply because ME doesn’t get what he is.

I can only bite my lip and hope that doesn't happen. Is Ultimate Drew going over to Angel? That'd help.

It was interesting to watch his uphill battle because he was doing it of his own free will

That's why I went from liking to look at him cause the actor was hot to adoring the character had wanting to spend hours writing about him.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Fortunately for us, yes, Ultimate Drew is going to Angel, at least, that's what I heard. I'm hopeful and if what Jidabug said above about Fury is true, maybe I can start to be more optimistic... although I still ache for the Spuffy.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

What a wonderful, thoughtful (and also extremely calm and rational) post! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[villagechick.livejournal.com]

Awesome post. I could never reconcile myself to the way the writers would make statements about the characters that seemed in diametric opposition of what we saw on the screen (most of the time). It took "don't show - tell" to a whole new level. Here's hoping the grey moral zone of Angel is a more appropriate place for Spike to shine.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

It took "don't show - tell" to a whole new level.

See, right there you said what it took me paragraphs to say, in a couple words! LOL! It's so true. They really did give us something different from what they may have believed -- which causes a lot of dissonance, and probably is what made it so hard to keep it all straight.

[ozfan.livejournal.com]

There’s a peculiarly didactic quality to their need to force us to remember that Spike is bad and evil and wrong, as if we’re stupid girls who can’t tell the difference between a bad man and a good man. As deeply as I love this show and as immersed as I am in the fandom, I’m not sure I’ll ever understand why you’d squander so much potential just to lecture your audience. I"m mostly happy with what I got, but a little sad at what I never got to see.
Wow. What a truly excellent post. I'm so glad I found it. I agree with you on so much of what you said. And now I must go buy the S4 DVDs.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Hey, that means a lot, coming from you!

I really loved watching the S4 dvds. I'd stopped taping the show (I'd taped religiously until then) because I hated the first two eps of S4 with a passion, disliked Riley, and wondered where it was going to go. In hindsight, after S5 started (my second favorite season), I realized I'd made a mistake and had to copy a few eps from a friend. Watching them again, I realized just how incredible some of the individual stories were. The overall theme wasn't strong, and they weathered enormous cast changes, but damn -- Something Blue, Wild at Heart, Harsh Light of Day, The Initiative, Hush, Restless, Superstar, Who are You?... there is some incredible work in there.

Plus, you know, Spike's a hottie, or at least, I've heard that from some people.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

This post made me grieve for what might have been. I agree with you all the way. So much stupidity, so much waste, so many conflicting signals and inequity that weren't addressed.

They might do it on Angel but I doubt it. Spike, more sinned against than sinning in S6 at least, will never get dignity or a helping hand now. Whether the new version will is another matter. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for expressing it so well in your post.

[laurashalo.livejournal.com]

One of my friends referred me to your post and I really enjoyed it. You boiled down the way that I too feel about Spike and why the recent comments by JM bothered me. I hope that the Angel writers Spike's appeal more clearly than the Buffy writers ever were able to. I also hope that JM doesn't regret the way he played Spike. I think he got it right and would hate to see ME's lack of vision impair how he plays Spike in the future.

halo

[corngirl-jo.livejournal.com]

An excellent enormous post. My neck is sore from all the nodding along.

One of the things that ticked me most about ME's (and the Scoobies') perception and subsequent treatment of Spike was that double standard of which you spoke; the line they draw between Spike the Demon vs. Anya-the Demon & Xander the Demon; and that those of Buffy fans that weren't Spike fans were prejudiced against him in exactly the same fashion. But what stood out most to me was the failure to acknowledge by the show that sometimes humans are capable of just as much - if not more - evil (Warren, Willow). That will always remain the show's greatest failure to me.

[anodyna.livejournal.com]

Hi! Hey, I'm just popping in and don't have time for a thoughtful reply (which your post deserves, of course--I hate being at work and not able to chat the way I want to!) But I wanted to give you this link to the Succubus Club interview (http://www.joelhume.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/) that jidabug mentioned. It's the interview with David Fury and Tim Minear in which they talk about Spike having been conceived since the beginning as a special vampire with more than the usual capacity for love.

I haven't seen a good transcript of this, unfortunately, and I can't tell you exactly where in the program the remarks occur, except I think it was in the second half. I know, two hours is a long time to listen to DF and TM talk, but if you want to...I wouldn't say DF expressed himself in terms of having been "wrong about Spike," though I've seen his comments described that way by others so it may be that I missed a sentence or two while I was listening. I think it was Tim Minear who did most of the talking on that subject, but DF certainly didn't express any dissenting views. (It was hard to tell who was talking at times, also.)

[elfgirl.livejournal.com]

Excellent, excellent post. You've echoed many of my own thoughts about Spike and his journey. Although I'm not particularly bitter about where he ended up, I recognize that there was a much more poignant story that could have been told that was left to founder and die instead.

Too bad James can't read this. I'd love for him to see what we see in his character.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I hope I haven't given the impression I'm bitter -- I worry that I do sound that way, and I'm SO not. I loved much of S7, and even some of S6; I just felt like there was something missing in terms of how the team viewed Spike, and how much could have been done to support Buffy's story by more consistency with the character. In the same way that Angel's life affected Buffy's, I think Spike's could have had a more profound and positive effect if the ME team had let it. But I loved what I did get on the show, and will always be grateful to them for what I do have -- some of the best hours of entertainment ever.

[rahirah]

I love you and want to bear your children. That is all.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's almost enough for me to rethink my policy on not having kids!

And what a pretty, pretty icon... that is a gorgeous shot of JM. Yum.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Hey there

Agree with you completely that the writers were clearly divided on what to do with Spike. OTOH, Spike himself was never a consistent or predictable guy, so his behavior isn't so easily tracked linearly.

I also agree that dignity was not offered to him by the writers, but OTOH (how many hands have I got?) he wasn't often seeking it either. Spike is - well, he's obnoxious, and that's what we love about him. But it also manifests itself in ways that make dignity contraindicated. For example, in (arguably the worst ep of S6) "As You Were", he sits with his package on full display in front of Riley. Yea, this was his way of saying "fuck you" literally to Farmboy, but what I'm saying is that even though Spike often talks about wanting to be treated like a "man" or even a gentleman, he rarely acts like one. I think Spike was at his very best and most selfless when Buffy wasn't around actually- when she was *dead*. He stayed, he did patrol and Dawn patrol, and yea, he did it because he made the promise, but it's not like he knew Buffy was coming back to call him on it. Unfortunately, once Buffy did come back, he pretty much went back to being creepy again, even when he was supposed to be sympathetic. (IE the scene in the graveyard the ep after she dumps him when he threatens to tell all her freinds about them).

The writers however, did a shitty job of making him totally evil, if that's what they really did want to do, but they also did a shitty job of making him a nice guy. So he was gray, which IMO is waaaay more cool and interesting than White Hat. Hell, Angel was at his best in the Beige!Angel arc of S2 IMO. And then, as if realizing they hadn't made their minds up and had better do so in a hurry, they went to Raping the Heroine. I don't think that was out of character for either of them, but I do think they handled it in the worst way possible. I mean, for the love of god, four eps later they're having sexual chemistry again! Oh yea, but he's souled now, so all's forgiven. Please! I agree, the soul was cheap storytelling, a cop out, and a way worse offense to the entire Spike arc than the rape scene ever was.

Spike with a soul had nowhere to go storywise. What was the difference between him and Angel REALLY, in terms of the arc post soul? Now they're both martyrs, both Buffy's ex, and both uncertain about their futures, except that apparently, their asses now both belong to an evil law firm. WHY??

The one point I strongly disagree on is that they squandered Spike and JM - at least in the way you're suggesting. He had a ton of screen time, sex with the leading woman, an arc that ended with an act of heroism, and he's on every magazine cover short of Redbook. They know EXACTLY what they have in him. A cash cow. And yea, I admit to some fear about how this is going to play out over on AtS. Why is he there? Will it be organic to the AtS storyline, or are they just "sticking him in Angel" (god my slasher heart skips a beat every time someone repeats that line) in order to continue to capitalize on his face? Cause that is cheap.

I think the thing I hate most about all this is the Spike vs. Angel crap, followed closely by the treating Buffy as if she is some prize to be won by the cutest, most worthy vampire routine. I'd like for Spike's story to intersect with Angel's story, because they SHOULD. Because there is history there, and a ton of chemistry, and the opportunity for some excellent storytelling that has nothing at all to do with black or white, and everything to do with intelligent, adult oriented entertainment. But I fear that Joss himself knows nothing about how to do this (witness his less than stellar Angel eps in the past) and with the absence of Tim Minear...christ, maybe I should just hope for Ho!Yay and leave it at that.

Thanks for a very interesting post.

-D

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Excellent points, all (and I'm kinda surprised you even read it, so it's cool that you responded!). Possibly I should have said "squandered Spike's potential" rather than squandered the use of the character. They've definitely played the hottie bad boy vamp thing to the hilt; mostly it's the other, deeper aspects I felt they were challenged by.

I think the thing I hate most about all this is the Spike vs. Angel crap, followed closely by the treating Buffy as if she is some prize to be won by the cutest, most worthy vampire routine

Yeah, and as someone who loves both Angel and Spike, it annoys me that it comes out that way in the fandom. I have definite feelings about Spike with Buffy that I wish could have been realized, but I recognize that they're *my* feelings and just something I have to deal with.

it's funny, too, about the hoYay! because I'm right now working on a new chapter of a WIP I started, and Spike's in LA with Angel and Wes trying to get help. I'm mentioning a slash past (nothing on screen) that I'm having fun with, because Fred is just agog over it -- I suppose it's the worst kind of wish fulfillment, but despite my Spuffiness, if there was a little slash, especially with Spike and Wes, I wouldn't, you know, object...

[juno.livejournal.com]

Great essay. Calm. Well reasoned.

One thing that I wanted to add was that others in the show saw Spike's potential as well. Buffy brings Dawn and Joyce to him. Giles tells him in season 4 that maybe he could do good and be good and was meant for a higher purpose. I think that this was something that added in case they had Buffy did not return for season 6 and they had DtVS. Wish that they had not dropped this when Buffy did return. This was another reason that Pod!Giles in season 7 did not work for me. Or the fact that once the soul was had, no one talked abou it in a way beyond Buffy's "He has a soul now." Arggh

[callherblondie.livejournal.com]

You're amazing Gwyn. You touched on all of my main problems with the show and in a very lucid and intelligent way. I want to make a billion copies of this and post it all over the ME offices (and mail a copy to JM as well). ME just doesn't get it . And that makes me sad. Oh, what could have been.

surfed on in

[criesbella.livejournal.com]

i read the JM UPI interview today and it crushed me!
so i've been surfing to read fan feedback and found you here. MWAH! SOUL SISTER! thank you for having your
say and for directing me to the BtVS folks on LJ.
i have tagged you for my FRIENDS list b/c i'm sure
now i have to scroll back and read your other thoughts.
thank you, thank you!
xo, anne

Re: surfed on in

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Glad to meet ya! DOn't get too wigged by JM's remarks. There's been a lot of good posts about this the past few weeks, and a lot of people have pointed out his need to distance, for instance, from really young girls fantasizing about a guy who was pretty evil initially, and about changing perceptions of character.

An actor does have a big take on the character, but he's not it alone, so don't get too upset!

[lasheremaleth.livejournal.com]

Excellent thoughts. I used to be a huge Spike fan, but he (or, to be more honest, the writers) lost me somewhere between Triangle and The Gift. What with the lack of anything resembling continuity in his character from one episode to the next, particularly in S6 - from Marti working out her issues to Jane's noble vision of Spike to Fury's "Spike=BAD!", I just gave up.

I can't stand Spuffy on screen. I think ME took a brilliant idea and just destroyed it onscreen, except for maybe Dead Things. And it's the constant reworking of Spike with regards to Spuffy that pisses me off so much.

Something I have trouble with - and this is totally my issue - is the idea of holding Xander to the same level of responsibility for his AR in The Pack to Spike's in SR. Not because of the whole "Xander was possessed!" angle, which should totally be applied to Spike too, but because ME did absolutely nothing to separate Spike and Souled!Spike. That made it difficult for me to remember that Spike v2.0 shouldn't be held accountable for what he did as *Spike*. Again, totally my issue, because I don't have that problem with Anya, and a huge failing on the part of the writers.

I admit I'm apprehensive about JM joining ATS, because I think they've done such an incredible job this year and I don't think they *need* another cast member, particularly another guy, but on the other hand I'm excited. I think Jeff Bell and Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain in particular could do excellent work with a character like Spike. It's just the Fury/Joss combo I'm dreading.

Anyway, sorry to ramble! Great essay, you raised some really interesting points.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

ME did absolutely nothing to separate Spike and Souled!Spike. That made it difficult for me to remember that Spike v2.0 shouldn't be held accountable for what he did as *Spike*.

that's actually a really good point and one I hadn't really considered before. I was very glad to see Spike get his rocks back at the end of Get It Done, and later Lies, but in a way that was almost a negation of what they'd set up in terms of him suffering for the soul, and his misery. There was no real attempt at defining a new personality for him, really. A lot of how he acted at end of S7 was how he acted at end of S5 -- by choice.

Well, here's to possibilities. I'm abivalent at best about him being on Angel, but I'm hopeful that Joss seems to understand they can't just stick him on there and pretend that what happened wasn't significant. HIs comments make me slightly less tense, but I'm still not certain what this is going to do. However, I always wait to see and make up my own mind, so I'll definitely be watching.

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

Superb post. All I can say is WORD.

Incidentally, here's the Succubus Club interview (http://www.thesuccubusclub.com/mp3/SC_030514.mp3) that jidabug mentions. You might also be interested in this other recent interview with David Fury (http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts3/fury.html), particularly the part where he talks about Spike (http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts3/fury3.html).

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links! I hope at some point I can go listen, I've been in avoidance mode for a while, sadly.

thank you

[kallysten.livejournal.com]

for putting in eloquent sentences what i've vainly been trying to explain to hubby for a while. Now i just need to make him read this LOL
:)

Re: thank you

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Hey, thank you! Hopefully you can set that man of yours straight!

Thank you

[pluckygirl.livejournal.com]

Wow. What an amazing read. I have never read such a good stance on Spike and who he is. Just abosolutely wonderful. May I add you to my friends list? Just wow. Not good with the words like you are.

Amber

Re: Thank you

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Amber! I'm really thrilled you got something good out of it! And yes, of course, friend away if you wish, no need to ask. It's very cool that someone thinks I have something useful to say. ;-)

[annerose.livejournal.com]

I loved your essay on Spike. He's always been an exception as you pointed out, never being treated the same as the other characters. And I'm never sure if all the talk in interviews is just publicity ploys or what they really think. If it's what they think, then they have missed the boat. Spike was pretty to look at and fun when he was "evil", but he became lovable when he started on his quest to change himself and become something better.