(no subject)
Aug. 26th, 2003 11:43 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gwynAt a get-together this weekend, one person asked us to name off our current biggest fandoms/pairings or what we’re reading. I of course was one of the most boring — my same old, same old of Spike and Buffy, and Chris and Vin, though I don’t really read much of either just because I’m usually writing. But I mentioned that I’m curious about the dynamic of this coming season of Angel because I’m interested to see how Wes and Spike relate to each other. (I don’t know of episode spoilers, so please don’t get medieval on my ass — it’s total speculation based on my knowledge of only a couple things: that Spike is going to be in the show, and that Wes is there. If you haven’t seen Chosen yet and you haven’t watched Angel, then proceed with caution, but I have no real spoilers.)
I’ve never really been interested in Spike slash, with anyone. There’ve been a couple Spuffy stories where suddenly we were introduced to some Spike/Angel slash, and that corner of my little brain went “whee!” as I was reading it, but I’ve generally not sought out actual S/A stories, and the whole Spike/Xander phenom mystifies me. The only slash pairing I ever really thought much about and had interest in was Spike/Giles, but didn’t think much about it and didn’t seek out much fanfic, though I’ve read a few things when occasion warranted. Spike, for me, just always belonged with Dru or Buffy. That was the guy I responded to most.
Even though I’m writing the work-in-not-much-progress-at-all as Spike having a very slashy past with Angel and a tiny flirtation with Wes, it’s still a Spike and Buffy story at heart, eventually. I think the layers of slashy history in fanfic are cool, but it’s not a primary interest for me. I see that a lot of Spike/Wes (I can’t go to the conflation place with Spes or Wike...gah!) is being written now, but I haven’t really checked it out because... because it’s not fanfic I’m interested in. What I want is canonical Spike and Wes relationship stuff.
Ha ha! you all laugh at me. Goodness, she really has gone off the deep end. But I have my reasons! Hear me out!
See, I’ve always thought it was cool that Joss made Willow gay and put her in canonically gay relationships. But it was also very, very safe. I discussed this a long time ago with a friend who’s a lesbian and has been out since mid-teen years, that on TV, lesbians are relatively safe, but homosexuals are not. Men find lesbianism titillating and provocative (after all, the girl/girl sex scene is a staple of het porn) but male homosexuality threatening, and it’s men who are mostly in charge of things in Hollywood. Even as outraged as many narrow-minded fans were about Willow morphing into a gay character, and as much heat as Joss took, it was still safer than turning Giles or Xander or hell, even Spike, gay. Despite all the gay me up jokes and stuff over the years for Xander, it would simply never happen, as that might make him a far less identifiable character for that everyguy quality. TV shows (outside of Will and Grace) seem to feel much safer with women being gay than men, and there aren’t quite as many societal issues to deal with (which is one reason I’m so very enamored of Queer Eye, because it’s like watching someone take a hammer to that wall and knock a few chinks in it; I’m also glad of QaF’s success). So it made a lot of sense that Willow would be the gay one, but I would love to see Mutant Enemy have the balls to develop a canonically gay male relationship on this show.
If they couldn’t do it on Buffy, Angel is the place. The characters' lives have been far more fluid on this show in many respects, and it’s often been willing to push that crush-on-Angel thing to jokey limits with other male characters. I always thought they made no subtext at all about the UST with Lindsey and Angel, it was almost flagrant at times — enough that even Lorne had to joke about it. So this doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility that two very broken male characters could come together in a relationship, but I’m not certain Joss and crew have the cojones to do it. It’s also doubtful the WB would allow it; their past treatment of gay characters hasn’t been all that supportive. But with the changing face of gays on TV, it’s instilled in me a silly hope that Mutant Enemy could again break some ground and shift a couple characters’ relationship patterns.
There’s always been a hint of ambiguity in Spike, which is why he’s so popular to slash with different characters. He’s clearly very focused on women, but he has that kind of dangerous anything-goes subtext about him that appeals to a slasher’s heart. And while all of Wes’s relationships have been with women, they’ve often played up his devotion to Angel and that tension with Gunn. And there’s the whole English public school thing. Both characters are severely damaged at this point, very lonely and alone, very much adrift in their own lives. I can see Wes being a presence in Spike’s life in whatever method they use to bring him back from...whatever happened to him. With his interest in unusual things, his knowledge, it would make sense that he’d be interested in Spike, and of course there’s the whole English connection. But mostly, there are mutualities that seem ripe with possibilities: the incredibly significant changes they’ve gone through over the years, their profound isolation from others, their desire to not be isolated, their broken hearts, and so on.
Even though the catalysts for their changes are not the same, both characters’ changes were deeply shaped by their relationships with women. For Spike, his catalyst for transformation was love for Buffy; with Wes, it was outside circumstances that were then affected powerfully by both Lilah and Fred, especially losing Fred to Gunn. In the end, Buffy shaped Spike’s future and his destiny by being part of his life (taking him out of the basement first to Xander’s and then to her own house, rescuing him when others didn’t want to, standing up to Giles and Wood for him, etc.) in a completely different way than she was as his love object. And Lilah’s relationship with Wes in particular pushed his loneliness and isolation in different directions than it might have taken, giving him the emotional strength to deal with something like an apocalypse he might not have had otherwise. As much as I want Spike with Buffy (and, well, I’d be happy with Wes being with either Faith or Lilah, but that ain’t gonna happen!), that story isn’t part of the canonical universe anymore. While hard for me to accept, there’s not much to do besides hide in fanfic. What I would like to see, though, is that Spike's love for Buffy not be negated by some wonderful new gal in his life, or throwing his past and his intense emotions away so they can move him on quickly. In some respects, it feels like altering the character’s sexuality could do that — be respectful of who he was then, and yet change him for the future in a dynamic and challenging way.
A TV show isn’t going to turn its titular character gay, not in this country, not in this time. So any gay relationships for Angel will have to be created by fanfic writers from subtext. But secondary characters are more malleable, and it seems more possible that they could change these characters’ orientations. Not that I believe it is possible. It would take a lot of courage to do something like that even on as testosterone-heavy a show as Angelwill be this year, with only Fred to really balance things on the estrogen end as a primary character. Few people would have the courage to buck a trend like that; fewer still the clout to deal with a network attempting to quash such an exploration. Gay males on network TV are supposed to be as asexual and unthreatening as possible because their very existence is supposedly so threatening. But there’s no way for Spike to not be sexual, really, it’s the nature of the character, and for a lot of us in the audience, Wes has become pretty damn hot lately, and his scenes with Lilah were frequently smoking. Why not, instead of having them mope around without some action, or stick them in standard low-gear relationships, get them together and show them a new kind of action? That could be not only really cool, but send a positive message about how strong and tough gay men could be and break a lot of barriers at the same time.
I know, I know. The only place I’m gonna find this is in fanfic. I’m sure there’s some good stories out there already, and more to come... but dammit, I want to see it on screen. Is it too much to ask in our Queer Eye glasnost period for a little hot English boy on boy action? I think not.
I’ve never really been interested in Spike slash, with anyone. There’ve been a couple Spuffy stories where suddenly we were introduced to some Spike/Angel slash, and that corner of my little brain went “whee!” as I was reading it, but I’ve generally not sought out actual S/A stories, and the whole Spike/Xander phenom mystifies me. The only slash pairing I ever really thought much about and had interest in was Spike/Giles, but didn’t think much about it and didn’t seek out much fanfic, though I’ve read a few things when occasion warranted. Spike, for me, just always belonged with Dru or Buffy. That was the guy I responded to most.
Even though I’m writing the work-in-not-much-progress-at-all as Spike having a very slashy past with Angel and a tiny flirtation with Wes, it’s still a Spike and Buffy story at heart, eventually. I think the layers of slashy history in fanfic are cool, but it’s not a primary interest for me. I see that a lot of Spike/Wes (I can’t go to the conflation place with Spes or Wike...gah!) is being written now, but I haven’t really checked it out because... because it’s not fanfic I’m interested in. What I want is canonical Spike and Wes relationship stuff.
Ha ha! you all laugh at me. Goodness, she really has gone off the deep end. But I have my reasons! Hear me out!
See, I’ve always thought it was cool that Joss made Willow gay and put her in canonically gay relationships. But it was also very, very safe. I discussed this a long time ago with a friend who’s a lesbian and has been out since mid-teen years, that on TV, lesbians are relatively safe, but homosexuals are not. Men find lesbianism titillating and provocative (after all, the girl/girl sex scene is a staple of het porn) but male homosexuality threatening, and it’s men who are mostly in charge of things in Hollywood. Even as outraged as many narrow-minded fans were about Willow morphing into a gay character, and as much heat as Joss took, it was still safer than turning Giles or Xander or hell, even Spike, gay. Despite all the gay me up jokes and stuff over the years for Xander, it would simply never happen, as that might make him a far less identifiable character for that everyguy quality. TV shows (outside of Will and Grace) seem to feel much safer with women being gay than men, and there aren’t quite as many societal issues to deal with (which is one reason I’m so very enamored of Queer Eye, because it’s like watching someone take a hammer to that wall and knock a few chinks in it; I’m also glad of QaF’s success). So it made a lot of sense that Willow would be the gay one, but I would love to see Mutant Enemy have the balls to develop a canonically gay male relationship on this show.
If they couldn’t do it on Buffy, Angel is the place. The characters' lives have been far more fluid on this show in many respects, and it’s often been willing to push that crush-on-Angel thing to jokey limits with other male characters. I always thought they made no subtext at all about the UST with Lindsey and Angel, it was almost flagrant at times — enough that even Lorne had to joke about it. So this doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility that two very broken male characters could come together in a relationship, but I’m not certain Joss and crew have the cojones to do it. It’s also doubtful the WB would allow it; their past treatment of gay characters hasn’t been all that supportive. But with the changing face of gays on TV, it’s instilled in me a silly hope that Mutant Enemy could again break some ground and shift a couple characters’ relationship patterns.
There’s always been a hint of ambiguity in Spike, which is why he’s so popular to slash with different characters. He’s clearly very focused on women, but he has that kind of dangerous anything-goes subtext about him that appeals to a slasher’s heart. And while all of Wes’s relationships have been with women, they’ve often played up his devotion to Angel and that tension with Gunn. And there’s the whole English public school thing. Both characters are severely damaged at this point, very lonely and alone, very much adrift in their own lives. I can see Wes being a presence in Spike’s life in whatever method they use to bring him back from...whatever happened to him. With his interest in unusual things, his knowledge, it would make sense that he’d be interested in Spike, and of course there’s the whole English connection. But mostly, there are mutualities that seem ripe with possibilities: the incredibly significant changes they’ve gone through over the years, their profound isolation from others, their desire to not be isolated, their broken hearts, and so on.
Even though the catalysts for their changes are not the same, both characters’ changes were deeply shaped by their relationships with women. For Spike, his catalyst for transformation was love for Buffy; with Wes, it was outside circumstances that were then affected powerfully by both Lilah and Fred, especially losing Fred to Gunn. In the end, Buffy shaped Spike’s future and his destiny by being part of his life (taking him out of the basement first to Xander’s and then to her own house, rescuing him when others didn’t want to, standing up to Giles and Wood for him, etc.) in a completely different way than she was as his love object. And Lilah’s relationship with Wes in particular pushed his loneliness and isolation in different directions than it might have taken, giving him the emotional strength to deal with something like an apocalypse he might not have had otherwise. As much as I want Spike with Buffy (and, well, I’d be happy with Wes being with either Faith or Lilah, but that ain’t gonna happen!), that story isn’t part of the canonical universe anymore. While hard for me to accept, there’s not much to do besides hide in fanfic. What I would like to see, though, is that Spike's love for Buffy not be negated by some wonderful new gal in his life, or throwing his past and his intense emotions away so they can move him on quickly. In some respects, it feels like altering the character’s sexuality could do that — be respectful of who he was then, and yet change him for the future in a dynamic and challenging way.
A TV show isn’t going to turn its titular character gay, not in this country, not in this time. So any gay relationships for Angel will have to be created by fanfic writers from subtext. But secondary characters are more malleable, and it seems more possible that they could change these characters’ orientations. Not that I believe it is possible. It would take a lot of courage to do something like that even on as testosterone-heavy a show as Angelwill be this year, with only Fred to really balance things on the estrogen end as a primary character. Few people would have the courage to buck a trend like that; fewer still the clout to deal with a network attempting to quash such an exploration. Gay males on network TV are supposed to be as asexual and unthreatening as possible because their very existence is supposedly so threatening. But there’s no way for Spike to not be sexual, really, it’s the nature of the character, and for a lot of us in the audience, Wes has become pretty damn hot lately, and his scenes with Lilah were frequently smoking. Why not, instead of having them mope around without some action, or stick them in standard low-gear relationships, get them together and show them a new kind of action? That could be not only really cool, but send a positive message about how strong and tough gay men could be and break a lot of barriers at the same time.
I know, I know. The only place I’m gonna find this is in fanfic. I’m sure there’s some good stories out there already, and more to come... but dammit, I want to see it on screen. Is it too much to ask in our Queer Eye glasnost period for a little hot English boy on boy action? I think not.
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 12:55 pm (UTC)All of it good.
AtS is the gayest show ever to not wear tights. It's not even *sub*text since the writers are in on the gig.
Wes/Spike could work on so many levels, not the least of which that they have both played similar roles in Angel(us)' life. Alas, fanfic is the only place it will ever happen. Well, maybe not alas, cause fanfic can be NC-17. :}
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 01:38 pm (UTC)Nor do I but I think we're dreamers. *g*
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 01:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 05:08 pm (UTC)You've given me so much to hope for! Thanks
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 09:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-28 04:57 am (UTC)Spike and Wes... sort of incestuous, no?
Date: 2003-08-29 05:16 pm (UTC)Sorry for gatecrashing your journal, btw.
Mock
mockery@the-rookery.org.uk
Re: Spike and Wes... sort of incestuous, no?
Date: 2003-08-31 12:02 pm (UTC)Wow ... I've never had this pointed out before ... never noticed it myself ... maybe I've been under a rock and just missed the conversation ... but ... wow ... I think I'm having an extreme epiphany here ... that's just ... wow....
(In other words, I had no clue about this dynamic but think you're right on.)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-01 06:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-01 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-01 05:46 am (UTC)I'll always be a Spuffy girl, but as it's not gonna happen any more, I just wish they'll take the characters someplace new-- S/W is definitely an intriguing idea.