Thanks for sharing
Jun. 16th, 2004 10:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gwynThere are conflagrations on a number of lists I'm on, and even in small private e-mail loops with friends, and I'm starting to wonder if it's the heat of summer (not that it's actually been hot here in Seattle, but I know the rest of the country actually has summer), or we just don't have enough to do, or... I've only been involved in one, but I'm starting to form a theory (I have a theory, it could be bunnies): Oversharing is a dangerous thing.
On the one list I'm on, where I actually helped perpetuate the problem, the reason I abreacted to something one person said (we'll call her Fan A) was that she said too damn much. Fan A had come on asking about something and where to find it, and I responded with information regarding two of the requests. Now, A could have left it alone, and just been gracious and said, thank you for the info. Or not even replied at all, if she didn't want it. But instead, A went into lengthy discourse about how she really didn't like that thing I gave the info on, and how much better her own thing was, and blah blah, which came across to some of us as sort of dismissive and snotty. Fan B went over the top and posted a cranky response, to which I (Fan C) replied, and then a Big Thing happened. Later, Fan A came back with an incredibly lengthy post again, explaining her shock at our reactions to a simple request, and reiterating her position (nevermind that it wasn't the request we responded to but her ungracious answer). Unfortunately, the amount of sharing only added to my picture of her as an (unintentional) snob -- she threw in wildly ridiculous cost justifications, made condescending remarks that, even though unintentional (probably), only served to make people who would already feel marginalized by her ealier comments even more so this time.
Basically, it was pages of oversharing that really didn't help clarify anything -- a simple: I'm really sorry for the misunderstanding, I just meant this and such, and then a gracious demurral might have worked a lot better. I wrote a lengthy, calm private post back, telling her why I'd thought initially that her remarks had been snotty, and how I was sorry about the miscommunication and problems, and that these [examples] might be the reason some of us reacted so negatively. Because seriously, it was just tons of information that really didn't enhance her initial communication, and probably only served to make it worse in some respects. I'm sure she'll tell me to blow it out my ass, but that's okay -- because the thing is, I'm speaking from experience. I'd tell me that, too, probably. It took me a long time to realize that sometimes the best course of action is just to say either nothing, or something very brief. I've burned myself with a blowtorch too many times (and still do) by saying too much, and it's not an easy lesson to learn, nor advice to hear.
And over on another list, one person overreacted out of sensitivity to a really, really loaded word, and then the original poster turned into a childish brat in response. And the thing is, she wouldn't have had to show herself that way if she'd just taken a moment to think about her post initially -- instead of using that loaded word, she could easily have asked about the piece in question and whether it might continue as a slash story or as het -- she didn't have to overshare about her feelings on slash, sex, stories, the greenhouse effect or anything else under the sun, and then the loaded word might easily have been avoided in the first place.
As someone who is regularly chewing on her own feet, I recognize this syndrome all too well. We feel like if we add to our question, or explain our response, we're somehow being more informative about our personal preferences, as if that will make a difference. Only, it rarely does. Mostly we end up saying something that could be misinterpreted or hurtful to others, especially because we have no way of knowing who out there in e-mail listland is already worn to a frazzle on the subject. For a slash fan who's had to deal with insults all through fandom, a simple off the cuff remark from a person going to great lengths to let everyone know she isn't into slash can seem more like a personal insult than that person ever intended. And for someone who's listened to people denigrate her artistic medium of choice for years, and be ostracized from her community because people no longer value that medium, an overexplanation of why someone doesn't want her art can be perceived, despite their best intentions, as a degrading slap in the face. You just never know, so explaining everything can really backfire.
When I was younger, I answered any compliment with a big explanation of why it wasn't as good as someone said it was. "That's a nice outfit" got the response of "Oh, I've had this in my closet forever and it doesn't fit, but I had to wear it even though it's too tight through the bust" or something. Or how bad my hair really was, or how ugly I was, or what a terrible writer I was, whatever. Someone finally took me aside and said, "please stop that. It offends people when they compliment you and are met with reasons their compliment is invalid. Grow up." And boy, did I. It's a constant battle with my self-esteemless self to do this, but now, I try to simply say thank you and shut up. If people provide me with info I don't want, or instruct me on something I can't do, I say, "thank you" and leave it. Because I've found that, especially on e-mail, every time I don't? I end up in hot water and lose friends. (Yet, just you wait, it will probably be something like next week where I fall into the trap again and make an ass of myself.)
Some of my friends accuse me of loving and fostering conflict because I don't run away from it like a big coward. Some people think that it's better to lie, obfuscate, or dissemble, to develop lengthy responses to things to skirt the issue, rather than be direct and simple. I can never agree with that, because I think that usually only fosters more conflict (which, btw, I hate). By going on at length with overblown reasoning and explaining it all for you, the person may actually be creating something conflicty they don't even see. But we've come to believe that a simple response is never good enough, or just asking a question without explaining why we're asking, is too rude or blunt. I think bluntness is aching for a comeback -- my belief is that the shorter the question or response, the clearer the thank you or whatever, the better off we'll all be, especially on lists where half the population is too immature to have experienced much foot in mouth disease like I have at the ripe old age of How Did I Get This Old, Again?
Or, maybe it's just the weather, and everyone's spoiling for a fight. But me, I'm thinking it's the dreaded Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All for You syndrome, and it's catching in summer months. I say be gracious but brief. That's my platform, if I ever run for office.
On the one list I'm on, where I actually helped perpetuate the problem, the reason I abreacted to something one person said (we'll call her Fan A) was that she said too damn much. Fan A had come on asking about something and where to find it, and I responded with information regarding two of the requests. Now, A could have left it alone, and just been gracious and said, thank you for the info. Or not even replied at all, if she didn't want it. But instead, A went into lengthy discourse about how she really didn't like that thing I gave the info on, and how much better her own thing was, and blah blah, which came across to some of us as sort of dismissive and snotty. Fan B went over the top and posted a cranky response, to which I (Fan C) replied, and then a Big Thing happened. Later, Fan A came back with an incredibly lengthy post again, explaining her shock at our reactions to a simple request, and reiterating her position (nevermind that it wasn't the request we responded to but her ungracious answer). Unfortunately, the amount of sharing only added to my picture of her as an (unintentional) snob -- she threw in wildly ridiculous cost justifications, made condescending remarks that, even though unintentional (probably), only served to make people who would already feel marginalized by her ealier comments even more so this time.
Basically, it was pages of oversharing that really didn't help clarify anything -- a simple: I'm really sorry for the misunderstanding, I just meant this and such, and then a gracious demurral might have worked a lot better. I wrote a lengthy, calm private post back, telling her why I'd thought initially that her remarks had been snotty, and how I was sorry about the miscommunication and problems, and that these [examples] might be the reason some of us reacted so negatively. Because seriously, it was just tons of information that really didn't enhance her initial communication, and probably only served to make it worse in some respects. I'm sure she'll tell me to blow it out my ass, but that's okay -- because the thing is, I'm speaking from experience. I'd tell me that, too, probably. It took me a long time to realize that sometimes the best course of action is just to say either nothing, or something very brief. I've burned myself with a blowtorch too many times (and still do) by saying too much, and it's not an easy lesson to learn, nor advice to hear.
And over on another list, one person overreacted out of sensitivity to a really, really loaded word, and then the original poster turned into a childish brat in response. And the thing is, she wouldn't have had to show herself that way if she'd just taken a moment to think about her post initially -- instead of using that loaded word, she could easily have asked about the piece in question and whether it might continue as a slash story or as het -- she didn't have to overshare about her feelings on slash, sex, stories, the greenhouse effect or anything else under the sun, and then the loaded word might easily have been avoided in the first place.
As someone who is regularly chewing on her own feet, I recognize this syndrome all too well. We feel like if we add to our question, or explain our response, we're somehow being more informative about our personal preferences, as if that will make a difference. Only, it rarely does. Mostly we end up saying something that could be misinterpreted or hurtful to others, especially because we have no way of knowing who out there in e-mail listland is already worn to a frazzle on the subject. For a slash fan who's had to deal with insults all through fandom, a simple off the cuff remark from a person going to great lengths to let everyone know she isn't into slash can seem more like a personal insult than that person ever intended. And for someone who's listened to people denigrate her artistic medium of choice for years, and be ostracized from her community because people no longer value that medium, an overexplanation of why someone doesn't want her art can be perceived, despite their best intentions, as a degrading slap in the face. You just never know, so explaining everything can really backfire.
When I was younger, I answered any compliment with a big explanation of why it wasn't as good as someone said it was. "That's a nice outfit" got the response of "Oh, I've had this in my closet forever and it doesn't fit, but I had to wear it even though it's too tight through the bust" or something. Or how bad my hair really was, or how ugly I was, or what a terrible writer I was, whatever. Someone finally took me aside and said, "please stop that. It offends people when they compliment you and are met with reasons their compliment is invalid. Grow up." And boy, did I. It's a constant battle with my self-esteemless self to do this, but now, I try to simply say thank you and shut up. If people provide me with info I don't want, or instruct me on something I can't do, I say, "thank you" and leave it. Because I've found that, especially on e-mail, every time I don't? I end up in hot water and lose friends. (Yet, just you wait, it will probably be something like next week where I fall into the trap again and make an ass of myself.)
Some of my friends accuse me of loving and fostering conflict because I don't run away from it like a big coward. Some people think that it's better to lie, obfuscate, or dissemble, to develop lengthy responses to things to skirt the issue, rather than be direct and simple. I can never agree with that, because I think that usually only fosters more conflict (which, btw, I hate). By going on at length with overblown reasoning and explaining it all for you, the person may actually be creating something conflicty they don't even see. But we've come to believe that a simple response is never good enough, or just asking a question without explaining why we're asking, is too rude or blunt. I think bluntness is aching for a comeback -- my belief is that the shorter the question or response, the clearer the thank you or whatever, the better off we'll all be, especially on lists where half the population is too immature to have experienced much foot in mouth disease like I have at the ripe old age of How Did I Get This Old, Again?
Or, maybe it's just the weather, and everyone's spoiling for a fight. But me, I'm thinking it's the dreaded Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All for You syndrome, and it's catching in summer months. I say be gracious but brief. That's my platform, if I ever run for office.
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no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 11:25 am (UTC)(was that clear? and concise? ;-))
You, my friend, are a smart person.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 12:26 pm (UTC)So I do the succinct thing and bow out semi-gracefully, most of the time. I'm conflict-avoidant. But it doesn't mean I'm not sitting here grinding my teeth, thinking about what I *would* say if I were going to say something. And the truth is that sometimes, things which should be challenged are not (by me, anyway).
There's a place for defending your position, I think. Except that when you do it, you've got to realize that you probably aren't ever really going to change your opponent's mind. And the nasty little hurt place that the arguments come from is going to keep hurting, and eventually you'll have to figure out how to deal with that all on your own.
(I mean "you" in the generic sense, here. I've never seen you, specifically, fight with anyone, so I can't talk about that. :-)
I do the humility thing, too, in response to compliments. It's such a kneejerk reaction that it's hard to bite it back. I had a teacher once who would mark you down for every bad thing you said about your project during a presentation - as he said, "If you don't believe in your work, who will?" which really helped to break me of the worst of the habit, after I got a couple of C's.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:42 pm (UTC)There's a place for defending your position, I think. Except that when you do it, you've got to realize that you probably aren't ever really going to change your opponent's mind
Oh, absolutely, and I hope I didn't convey that one should never say anything at all. But I think, using my first example as... um, example, what happened was that in defending her position, she ended up amplifying all of the things she'd said, and adding on worse things -- condescending, unnecessary remarks like "computers aren't evil, you're using one" and such like that serve no one's purpose. It seems totally reasonable to say: I meant this, and this, and not what you're saying, and here's how I see the world, and leave it at that. But so many people use the defense to add even more possibly upsetting stuff on. So yes, you're right, but also, I want people to be brief about it!
It's such a kneejerk reaction that it's hard to bite it back.
It is most definitely not easy. It's excrutiating, when what I really want to say is why I'm unworthy of the compliment. But your teacher's method is good -- because he's so right.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 12:40 pm (UTC)It's funny you say that because a conflagration just started on my Highlander list yesterday. Granted, Highla-L is the most flame-y (not in a good gay way *G*) list I've ever been on, but still...another summer blow up.
Anyway. I was thinking about your oversharing theory. It reminded me of a discussion on a writing list I'm on. We were talking about cover letters and synopses and things like that, and the advice of one of the published authors on the list was that you not overshare. Because the more you say, the more chances there are for an editor to see something they don't like in your story, and the more possible reasons you give them to reject you. Obviously, you need to say enough for them to get an idea of what you're selling, and you don't want to misrepresent the work. But her point was you never know what's going to set off each editor's red reject button, so the simpler you keep it the better off you are. So yeah...I think you're definitely on to something. (Although I can't seem to stop oversharing ever. I'm always explaining myself more than is really necessary. And I do that deflecting compliments thing too. Look, I'm oversharing RIGHT NOW. *G*)
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:48 pm (UTC)Maybe that's really it -- less is more. I had an assistant at my old job who used to write letters for community groups and she'd have me edit the letters. I always took out the three hundred pleases and thank yous and other softening remarks, which upset her because she thought it would sound rude. But I asked her, "If you got 30 letters a day asking for donations, would you want to read 30 letters of two pages, or 30 letters of one page, with four paragraphs or less?" I'd cut down two-page letters to one, and she had to admit, they did make the point. I guess it's like my feelings on single-joke comedy vids -- get in, make your point, get out.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 12:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:51 pm (UTC)BTW, I thought you did a great job wearing your mod hat on BBF. Good points; it's too bad that one person really isn't able to see that. And your Robin icon=so cute!
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:19 pm (UTC)Hence my reluctance to get on LJ. ;)
I hate to say this, but, while I've met some really nice fans over the years, there are a *lot* of intolerant fans out there, as well, who attack and/or insult anyone who doesn't agree with them, refuse to ever consider anyone else's POV, and grind others down with their "rightness," to the point of ridiculousness (like the SG fan who said there were 3 syllables in the name Daniel, then kept insisting she was right!). That's my biggest problem with fandom -- fannish egos.
It's a constant battle with my self-esteemless self to do this, but now, I try to simply say thank you and shut up.
And yet? I did that for the first time in my life at this year's Escapade, because I get really nervous at vid shows, and I thought it made sense to stick to one simple, sincere response, and not babble at anyone. And I felt like *such* an ass afterward. Still do. Plus, I now imagine everyone who paid me a compliment thinks I'm a pompous jerk for just smiling and saying "Thanks." Like, oh yes, I *knew* I deserved heaps of praise, or something. I don't know. :P
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 01:58 pm (UTC)And I've only ever heard people sneer at those who don't acknowledge a compliment at all, even with a single word of thanks. So believe me, you did the right thing, I'm proud of you, and keep it up, because no one would ever think that for saying thank you.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 03:02 pm (UTC)I'd vote for you, and be one of those people at your Inauguration Party cheerily waving a banner with your name on it.
Hahah!
Date: 2004-06-16 04:15 pm (UTC)So off to read a bad novel, instead :-) You've got my vote!
no subject
Date: 2004-06-16 05:11 pm (UTC)I've always had difficulty saying a simple "thank you" to a compliment, and mainly because I have this attiitude that the best way to praise somebody is to make it easier for that person to be doing more of whatever it is she's doing well. (I once actually told a member of one management team that I don't care about the high marks they're giving me, and that I'd like it better if they'd just sign-off already on my proposal and requisition.) And here, I've always wondered why a lot of people think I am difficult, "prickly", or even arrogant.
I come from a culture where politeness and graciousness are as valued as petrolium. I wish I had someone take me aside when I was younger and explained to me that the "you're good/thank you/you're welcome" exchange is a necessary social ritual because people generally do not like feeling disturbed or off-balanced. Maybe someone did attempt to pound this point on me but I was either too hard-headed or too literal, or both. Growing up and growing older, I think means being able to abide by the superficiality of most social transactions, and not getting lost (or feeling conflicted about it) since you have your own internal map or GPS figured and configured. Some call this grace, which I realised is not the same as politeness or graciousness. Not that I have it, grace I mean. But it's something worth aspiring for.