Clarity, parity, and charity

[gwyn]

So, to clarify a little about what I said yesterday, and because this has come up a bunch recently in private conversations. For me, fandom is about participation and community. I'm not as social as many people I know, but I also don't thrive in a fandom without participation and a sense of friendships or having conversations or whatever. People talk a lot about being happy producing on their own or "writing/vidding for me" or whatever. That's fine. I don't relate to that, because the truth is, if we were doing it only for ourselves, we wouldn't be posting or printing stories, making vids available, going to cons, whatever. Even if we're just heads-down, writing or vidding, not looking up at the world around us, the act of sharing the product is participation. And that's my primary interest in fandom -- I came to realize a long time ago that I seem to have been born with the fannish gene, and it's who I am, so I have to live with the fact that I'm always going to be acting fannish about something.

And there's where my cognitive dissonance comes in, because the way the culture has morphed into this drive-by consume and move on, no contact culture means I have no sense of participation and community any more. If I'm lucky, I might get feedback on a vid or a story, but 99% of the time, I won't. Some people have higher ratios of that, and some lower, but for all of us who produce anything, that response is now pretty much the only way you have to gauge whether you're making connections with people and people are responding to what you do (because you can't gauge things like zine sales, etc.). (Except a con vid show, where you can get a sense sometimes judging by applause and conversations after, but shows are far and few between and most fans don't go anyway.) For some people, they don't care. That's fine. But for some of us, that sense of connection -- of writing a letter to an author whose work you loved and striking up a conversation, and later a friendship; of getting a note from someone and connecting to them; or them discovering your LJ or vice versa -- is the only real thing that separates fandom from the mundane world. And I think community has largely disappeared, because discussion and participation have disappeared, except for some reason in Buffyverse fandom, where people still seem to be going strong with things like the virtual seasons and the Tea at the Ford site.

The thing is, I have a million things I should and could be doing. The only thing that compels me to produce anything besides the mandate of the fannish gene is being able to connect to people, to inspire conversation or ideas. I should be gardening, working on the house, helping my dad, working on RL fiction... blah blah. Lots of stuff I drop because of fandom. When I write, I make a movie in my head -- it's completely cast, it's got a cinematographer, the works. I know exactly how it will sound and look and can see it there. I make vids in my head too -- and they're often a lot better than the vids I make, because they have lovely effects and turn out way more beautiful than anything I could ever do on my own. So there's no reason whatsoever for me to actually work hard to produce these things when I can enjoy them on my own in my head (one of the reasons I have so much trouble writing short burst exercises -- I can't fully film my movie!). Except, of course, for community, sharing, the whole process of being part of the fandom, whichever one I'm in. For making this thing I love to do, and dispersing it to others to, hopefully, enjoy.

I like participating with like-minded people. I think it's fun to talk meta, to analyze and dissect, to share and discuss and be part of a group. The best time I had getting into a fandom was when feochadn, movies_michelle, and black_bird_777 and I all got into Magnificent 7 at the same time, and we'd gather for ep watchings, e-mail furiously back and forth, help each other with the stories blackbird and I were writing, share resources, etc. God, that was great for the short time it lasted. Part of what inspired me about F&F was having mlyn standing behind me, cheerleading. When I first got back into Buffy, I wrote tons of feedback to authors I loved, and a lot of them actually responded, and I ended up making some really good friends who've transcended just LJ friends list status. For me, that's what sharing stories or vids is all about -- connecting, knowing, gathering, relating.

And that's why things like the negativity of some people at Escapade grinds me down so much -- they've removed the positive aspects of participation and replaced it with negative, they've made a lot of us flinchy and unhappy and tense, where we used to be that way only in the moments when we actually showed the vid. Now it permeates the whole con and afterwards for vidders. I think melina123's right in that we have to just say, fuck you all for taking away this show we care about and love, I'm bringing what I want. But I also know that emotionally, I've been worn down by the sort of pre-emptive negativity to things like Western fandoms, non-popular pairings or show, other themes, and I find it really depressing when people shut you down before you even have a chance to share. Because... all about the sharing, here.

Vids for shows and recruitment and such have been a big part of my vidding experience lately, much more than just making something for my own fun. And with goals in mind, it makes it feel more imperative to connect with people -- what good's a recruiter vid that doesn't recruit, or a dance show vid that doesn't make people want to dance, you know? That's where my dissonance gets stuck, on a repeat cycle. You want to connect, but you just don't know these days in many areas if you ever will. Or, you'll only get negativity as with some of the people at Escapade, so the connections formed are ones that make you want to run away from this thing you love.

Because, you know, you could be doing a million other things. I'm fine with just leaving my movies in my head and enjoying them over and over. The only thing that compels me to make them into something I can share is the community, if they want those things. If I have no sense that the community wants them? Hell, why bother. I believe I see similar attitudes from a lot of people -- it's not a "feedback me or I'll take my ball and go home" problem, it's more of a "well, hm, if there's just a big vacuum out there and there's no community, and I'm just a faceless vending machine, maybe I'll just do more laundry instead of making this vid." Without feeling like we have people to participate with, discuss, get meta, talk vid or story... many of us just sort of dry up and wither. We might want to vid because we're compelled to, but after a while, the compulsion can just disappear without a little watering and fertilizer. I get many of my best ideas out of conversations with other fans about how they see things in eps or something -- without that, I run out of concepts to pursue. That's why, with Buffy still going strong, there's more compelling stuff to write, even two years later. People are still talking.

I'm glad many people don't care and will continue to output regardless of connections or negative people at cons or what have you. That's cool that they feel that way. But I'm definitely not one of those people -- without feeling like I'm able to connect to people through what I do, I'd just rather sit on my fat ass and balance my checkbook while watching A Man Apart again, and dreaming up scenarios with scantily clad Vin that I will keep in my own little brain, fully formed. A wonderful evening like I had last night, getting amazing con-crit from killabeez about my new vid (and making me feel much more positive about it, because I thrive on good solid crit) and chatting in another window with tzikeh about music and Carnivale, is the kind of thing that makes me love participating. I was so energized last night after talking to them I couldn't go to sleep! Just simple little conversations. Not just feedback, but relating. Participation. 'Cause that's what I'm all about -- otherwise you can find me watching one of my really stunning vids in my head, zoning out on TV, disconnected, or enjoying that story unfolding cinematically in my head.

Comments

[marsterslady.livejournal.com]

Bravo. That was really well said, and I understand and back you 100%.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

You know, I actually do understand where you're coming from and fully acknowledge that your ideas of fannish interaction and mine don't quite synch up. It isn't a lack of desire on my part: I'd love to engage in the kind of ongoing communication and discussion that you are talking about, that in itself is a kind of fannish output. I absolutely want the movies in your head to be played out where I can see them and enjoy them with you, or just ogle at how many different *kinds* of fannish output you can summon up: vids, stories; discussions, commentary, and analysis.

I think I lack the basics in actually producing that or providing that for other fen for the most part. So, most of my communication tends to be of the fangirlish squeeing kind rather than something substantiative.

Which is disappointing on two fronts because it doesn't give you what you need and want (and deserve, maybe more importantly) and it doesn't get me what I want and need which is both to be inspried (which you do really, really well for me) and contribute to the overall community aspect that I know is part and parcel of the whole experience.

It isn't your issue, per se, you've jsut given me a lot to think about in terms of how I participate and if maybe I'm one of those fen who actually takes more than she gives.

At the same time, I'm entirely willing to be educated and mentored and to babble endlessly about the greater appeal of Dominic Toretto in minimal clothing or Brian O'Conner in nothing but a brilliant smile...

Errr..but then I'd be engaging in fangrrlish squeeing again and asking you to *give* yet more...

Mostly I really want you get what you want and need. Becasue a few assholes aside, everyone benefits when you do.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Well, I think churning out thousands of words of fanfic and giving fb on vids and such is pretty much participating! But I think what's going on currently in F&F is that most people who are writing (and that seems to be most of the fandom!) are really just... writing, or vidding, and responding to comments on stories, and that's largely it. Ship Manifesto might be a good example of what I'm talking about -- I love the concept in many ways, and I love the idea of someone writing meta dissections of relationships (or characters, at Idol Reflection), but you notice that the comments are all just "great job, really gets at why I like them!" (I'm guilty of this too.) It LOOKS like conversation and participation, but it's not, not really. LJ is deceptive that way!

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I think maybe we have differing POVs here and I am finding this interesting. I tend to approach fandom from -perhaps- a micro standpoint (maybe you are macro and whoa - suddenly the micro/macro thing makes sense to me now, 10 years after my economics class) - as in as long as I have at least one other person to sustain the conversation, share the vision/vid/idea, I'm okay.

I'd like more people of course - I'm likely to stand screaming in a corner "Y'all watch my show, Mkay!" but as long as there are a few other people willing to enjoy with me, I don't really seem to notice anyone/anything else.

It's like tunnel vision and I only see the few and miss the many. Like, right after the premiere show, I was a bit disappointed with the reaction for "Two Words" but then Killa liked it so it was okay that it was too fast for someone else. Or it made Lum cry so it was okay if so and so didn't get it or if a group of people were flummoxed by the music. I guess I am producing for an audience much wider than *me* but when I think about it now, I am really interested/invested in the reactions of only a few people and the rest is either feedback gravy or white noise.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I like that analogy -- micro/macro fen...[g]. I think I fall more in to the micro fen category. I don't necessarily want to play alone, but I'm good with a small group even if I'm in a big fandom.

[suaine.livejournal.com]

it's not a "feedback me or I'll take my ball and go home" problem, it's more of a "well, hm, if there's just a big vacuum out there and there's no community, and I'm just a faceless vending machine, maybe I'll just do more laundry instead of making this vid." Without feeling like we have people to participate with, discuss, get meta, talk vid or story... many of us just sort of dry up and wither.

I think we all felt that way at some point. I do so very frequently. And there are days when I'm sure it's not worth it because no one really cares whether you're writing that story or not... but then despite all the non-fannish things I should rather be doing I come back to fandom, simply hoping that this time when I write some silly meta about why elves are like Mounties or something, someone will be there and talk to me about something no non-fan would ever care about. I guess the fannish gene can not be denied ;)

*participates the hell out of you* *hugs*

Of course, when you're writing things like "Knockaround Guys" as I do, well, there aren't that many fen who even know about the movie or how wonderfully slashy the Barry Pepper/Vin Diesel interaction is :)

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're writing Knockaround Guys? This I have to see.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Thank you for telling me about KG stories! I'm excited... I really did love their relationship, and Vin's character in that movie. His 500 fights scene just gave me chills. When people gripe about him not being a good actor, I would love to bitch slap them with that scene and a copy of Multi-Facial.

I think it really is the people who bring you back. As bad a taste as Escapade left in my mouth last year, it's my friends who make me go back, make me want to keep doing things. That's why folks who are totally disconnected baffle me.

[labgirl2076.livejournal.com]

Someone is writing and vidding Knockaround Guys and I'm just finding out? Thank you so much for saying so. Very excited.

*running off to suaine's lj*

vending machines

[talking-sock.livejournal.com]

I guess this is a test: if you're just a vending machine, but you feel you are vending, you've got something in terms of feedback. If you feel that no one is consuming or would care if you took the machine away, then you've got nothing at all.

But I think you feel people are using the machine, right?

Re: vending machines

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

"People take from me, therefore I am"?

It's still a sad existance.

Re: vending machines

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Ack! You're asking me existential questions! How dare you? I don't know if vending without knowing anyone's putting in coins is vending though... maybe it's like the free bin at Cellophane Square? Eventually you notice that it's getting empty, though you never saw anyone take anything? I don't know.

[elfinessy.livejournal.com]

Didn't know whether to respond or not, but I guess that's the point!

I used to put, at the base of all my stories, 'I don't do this for cash, I do it for feedback.' I don't anymore. I guess because I write in fandoms where I'm either the only or one of the only writers, I'm used to not hearing back on anything for months or years. I have a feedback form on the website at the base of every story and oddly since doing that, more people have fedback as well as left their email addresses.

Mailing them back we've had chats about the fiction, about the fandom.

I met a couple of my best friends and co-writers online. I've met people here on LJ I know I'll be meeting in person in Feb at Redemption.

And then there's the Stargate SG1 fandom. An amazing place to be. The whole SDJ campaign drew the fandom together into a community, the community it is today with in-jokes, Sunday night online chats, etc.

As far as the writing goes, I don't actually do it for feedback, I do it because it relaxes me and I have to get the words out of my head. I try to feedback to people whose stories I find on the internet because as a writer I know how important feedback is.

It'll be a sad day when the internet means fandoms are no longer communities.

I understand about the feedback thing, I guess I've just gotten used to us, rightly or wrongly.

I've never been in the Buffy fandom, although I know someone who is and she seems very happy there.

I know I haven't said anything a) new or b) stunningly inciteful. Just wanted to say something.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I frankly wish feedback wasn't the only real currency we have in fandom anymore. In zine days, you could kind of at least know people were buying your zines, so you had a good chance of being read. And cons were central to fan participation. So you had face to face examples, and people didn't have this entitled mentality like the one that is wrecking Escapade. Unfortunately any need for connection is gone now. We're a big faceless blob. That's what I lament, not so much more feedback, but the *chance* to be involved.

[klia.livejournal.com]

The whole SDJ campaign drew the fandom together into a community, the community it is today with in-jokes, Sunday night online chats, etc.

Funny how some of us saw that as a splintering and polarizing of the fandom. I guess it's all about how each individual experiences things.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Well said. I'll have to put this post in my memories, so that when people get into conversations about how they're baffled that people aren't having fun in the fandom, I can direct them here. I think your points are absolutely valid, even though I wish you didn't have to make them.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Because, you know, you could be doing a million other things. I'm fine with just leaving my movies in my head and enjoying them over and over. The only thing that compels me to make them into something I can share is the community, if they want those things. If I have no sense that the community wants them? Hell, why bother. I believe I see similar attitudes from a lot of people -- it's not a "feedback me or I'll take my ball and go home" problem, it's more of a "well, hm, if there's just a big vacuum out there and there's no community, and I'm just a faceless vending machine, maybe I'll just do more laundry instead of making this vid." Without feeling like we have people to participate with, discuss, get meta, talk vid or story... many of us just sort of dry up and wither

Yes. this is very true.

I tend to be all right with the micro kind of fandom - three or four people to discuss things with, to share the squee, but I don't even have that all the time, and sometimes I really do feel like I have to produce or be forgotten by everyone else, and even when I do produce, nobody cares. And it's a terrible feeling, because I feel it even though I get more feedback now than I ever did before LJ, in any fandom prior to HP. No matter what, it's just not good enough, or any kind of enough.

Lately, I've been drawn to smaller fandoms, and I think that might be why. Because they do have that feeling of community, of squeeing on AIM or in my LJ for three or four people, rather than worrying about the full 200 on my flist....

Here via boniblithe, btw.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

My current small fandom is not a big one for discussion. Fortunately it's producing a lot of fic lately, but it didn't take me long to realize, uh oh, not a place I fit in well with my big love of meta discussions and analysis (it's not helped by being a movie) and yak yak yak. There are a couple people who've been downright rude when I tried to initiate conversation. The nice thing about big fandoms is that you can often find a wider pool of friends to select from, but... you do run the risks of all that ripple in the pool stuff, as well. No easy answer, I guess...

[sidewinder.livejournal.com]

So there's no reason whatsoever for me to actually work hard to produce these things when I can enjoy them on my own in my head (one of the reasons I have so much trouble writing short burst exercises -- I can't fully film my movie!). Except, of course, for community, sharing, the whole process of being part of the fandom, whichever one I'm in. For making this thing I love to do, and dispersing it to others to, hopefully, enjoy.


I'm wandering over here from a link, and can I just say, wow, you just took the thoughts right out of my head.

For me the whole point of vidding or writing fan-fiction is to share the images and ideas in my head with other people who might enjoy them. Vidding and writing are things I enjoy yet are also a tremendous struggle for me, so if I pour hours or days or months into something, only to have it disappear into the void with no response at all I feel like, why did I bother? I can just keep my little fannish fantasies in my head instead.

And I know what you mean about negativity. I stopped vidding because of it, because I felt like my style of vidding and my fandoms just were not what people had any interest in seeing. The only thing that's brought me back to doing it again is having some people poke me to do some for the one convention where it seems folks like my vids...so yeah, I'll do vids for that audience because I know it won't be a wasted effort. I don't need to agonize over putting together a vid to only have it knocked apart, ignored, or actively hated upon somewhere else. It's not worth it for me and I have a lot better things to do with my time.

Likewise, I've only just now found a community where people genuinely seem interested in reading the fan-fiction I've been writing for the past two years. In a few days I've gotten more feedback than in those whole two years, and suddenly the creative wheels are spinning again like they haven't in ages. It's partly the ego-stroking, sure, but it's also just feeling connected again to folks who are interested in the same somewhat obscure stuff I am. Without that connection, there's only so long I can sustain myself on my own enthusiasm.

It's funny but the only creative avenue where I don't need this kind of network of fans/support is with my artwork. Because that's the one thing I do fannish or not, have since I was a kid, that I need to do for myself if for no one else. But everything else? It's all really for the connections and interactions.

Basically, just want to say I know where you're coming from with all of this and I agree 100%.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Consider yourself poked. (: I always enjoy your vids.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Gah, I have so many conflicting thoughts about this stuff that it's hard to organize them into anything coherent. I'm half "me too!" and half "but wait!" Not very useful.

I wish more folks could've come to the Connecting With Audiences panel Rache and I ran at VVC last year, because we were talking about all of this stuff: what we expect from audiences, what they expect from us, the difference in types of audiences and their size and their relative responsiveness to various stimuli (as though they were in little fandom-encircled petri dishes). I don't know that we rocked the world with our conclusions, but it was useful to talk about.

I *do* feel community slipping away from me, but it's largely to do with my own total lack of interest in any currently-running television shows. However, I am sort of appalled to discover that even the shows that I used to love don't stimulate me to participate in the communities that still exist around them. My current Big Fannish Outlet is a bimonthly gathering with three or four friends to watch Buffy, in order -- one of these friends is a Buffy virgin, and watching her watch the show is a source of great joy to me. This weekend, I showed some vids, and got to talk about vidding, and show some of my own work, and I got some strokes. Now, that was great, but I honestly enjoyed just trying to explain vidding to my friends even more. I got all high on it, talking about why vids are so cool.

And that was, like, more fannish pleasure than I've felt since Vividcon.

Looking back over the past year, I'd have to say that online interactions are for the most part not exciting me very much, but that in-person interactions are more important than ever. That includes cons, and Escapade, although I can't make it this year.

I think that, like sisabet, I am able to thrive on micro-communities and even just pleasing one person besides myself. But it does depend on my expectations. I was disappointed in the reception of "Come Together" at Escapade last year, because I'd had such high hopes for it. But then when you told me how much you liked it, I felt great. And I felt like I learned something about the varied audiences at Escapade, too. And unlike melina123, I *do* pay some attention to what I think will work there and what won't. However, I have not bothered to look at comment sheets or solicit opinions from folks there that I don't know. This year I'm sending a Buffy vid. It's not slashy (unlike "Come Together", which I'd hoped would play well because of the slash factor), but it's in a fandom almost everyone there will know. But if the mass audience doesn't like it, I still feel all right, because I know half a dozen vidders and Buffy fans who will. And they'll probably even mention it to me. (:

I do miss the kind of connection you talk about, when you and some close friends are in the total obsessive phase with a new show. I keep hoping that part will come back to me. Until it does, vidding qua vidding is my fandom and my passion, and I'm going to keep doing it as long as I can.

[melinafandom.livejournal.com]

And unlike melina123, I *do* pay some attention to what I think will work there and what won't.

I do pay some attention -- it's just not the key factor for me anymore. I will no longer reject showing a particular vid out of hand because of some perceived wisdom about what works at Escapade and what doesn't. It's been proved wrong too many times, for one thing.

For another, there are a few, vocal, "where's the slash" and "why are you pimping this unfamiliar fandom to me" people. They're entitled to their opinions, but so are the people who appreciate vids that don't fit the "OMG pretty boys in love" paradigm. So my choice is to consider the audience as a whole, and not the most narrow-minded among them, and to show the best work I'm ready to show at the time.

If that's unreasonable or selfish -- then I'm unreasonable and selfish, I guess.

[superplin.livejournal.com]

Speaking of which, you are very much missed at the moment. Your POV would be very useful right now, and I'm not the only one who thinks so.

As for the rest, well, we've talked a little about it before, and I can't say much else because I've only got the one fandom. I know a huge part of my own problems with giving feedback on fic is that it seems, in many places, the only acceptable response is "yay! fabulous! update soon OMG!". If I'm going to give feedback, I want it to be a little weightier, but a) the story has to be weighty enough to be worth the effort (and honestly, lots of stories are perfectly enjoyable as fluff reads but not much else--possibly as a byproduct of this very sort of superficial interaction), and b) I need to feel relatively comfortable discussing subjects I care about with the author.

I still think of myself as a fandom newbie, and so I take my cues from the environment. In most places, it doesn't seem acceptable to say something like, "I thought the story was very well-written, but I'm a little confused about _______, which seems to imply _______. How does that fit in with _________?" No matter how nicely you put it--and mean it--such a comment is likely to be taken as negative feedback, and so provoke a negative reaction. So much for engaging in conversation or forging a connection.

Which is a big reason I was so excited about TATF, because it is founded on the understanding that crit and lit aren't all that different, and if you write a story (in the Jossverse, anyway) you are necessarily saying something about the characters and the philosophy of the show and what you think certain things mean. That's the sort of thing I love to discuss, but it's not often I feel welcome bringing these subjects up in the context of feedback on a fic. (I have zero visual sense or understanding of vidding at all, so there I am pretty much limited to "wow, cool!")

The end result is that I very rarely say anything at all, and so I become part of the problem. Sigh.

[indri]

something like, "I thought the story was very well-written, but I'm a little confused about _______, which seems to imply _______. How does that fit in with _________?"

If you ever send me feedback of that sort, I would be so pathetically grateful that I would promise to send you in return anything not-too-extravagant from Australia that you might want.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I believe I see similar attitudes from a lot of people -- it's not a "feedback me or I'll take my ball and go home" problem, it's more of a "well, hm, if there's just a big vacuum out there and there's no community, and I'm just a faceless vending machine, maybe I'll just do more laundry instead of making this vid."

Heh! Well, it's not vids but I have to say that I adore your metaphor, because I think I feel that way too - sometimes I HAVE to sit down and write stuff so I can just stop thinking about it, and then it comes out exactly the way I want it to and I just don't care whether anyone else reads it or not; but more often, I think "I spent a lot of time writing this thing that no one is reading and if I wanted to do that, I could just get on with writing the original novel because no one's reading that either!" And then you do wonder why you're bothering ... I'm in the happy place right now of just doing it regardless, but I know that can all change in a moment and then I'll get into a funk again. Heh!

You know, the other thing that I was thinking about was how people will say sometimes that "I just didn't have anything to say other than that I loved the story" and I think, especially on LJ, it DOESN'T matter (OK, it doesn't matter to me, at any rate) that I don't get a 20-page dissertation on exactly which parts the reader enjoyed/ felt worked best/ etc. Don't get me wrong - I adore those types of comments - but just the sheer knowing that this isn't going into a vacuum is worth SOMETHING. If I enjoyed a story, I try to remember to say that, if nothing else.

Some of your frustration - I wonder is it that the fandom is small? I just don't know anything about "Fast & the Furious" and so I wouldn't tend to read fanfic in it (that is the right name, yes?) So it's a bit different from the Buffyverse which was huge and where more response was almost guaranteed, no matter what you said.

Well, I'm rambling very pointlessly, but I really do enjoy the thoughtfulness you bring to so many topics (I friended you because I still think your essay on Sharpe is one of the best things I've ever read on one of my favorite topics, and it's in my "memories" to reread every now and then). I hope you'll keep being in some fandom or the other.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I have this theory that it's less about size of a fandom as the culture of each individual fandom. For instance, Magnificent 7 is a small fandom, but people really cling together in it in surprising ways, even supporting really execrable writing and only getting bogged down in pairing wars in a few places. I've even seen a greater willingness for nonslashers to treat slash with respect than I see in most other places. But the culture is slightly different than F&F -- partly, I'm sure, it's that it's a movie vs. tv show, but I think the culture is waaayy different in terms of who it attracts. Probably a lot of people have moved on from discussing the movie, larger themes, character and are only hoping for more fic or vids. That's to be expected, I guess. But I'm not sure that culturally, it would have been anymore accommodating at the beginning after the movie came out. Having been immersed in a lot of fandoms, especially the first real Internet fandom, XF, back at the beginning, I've just learned that fandoms have their own styles... and if you don't fit in with the style, you might end up frustrated enough to move on. For me that's not necessarily bad because I can carry that stuff in my head. I miss the chance to talk, but... I'll live. ;-)

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I think part of the difference may be that your stuff is in your head, fully formed, like you say. You can watch it yourself without having to do the work. Mine isn't. I don't know what my stories are or where they're going until I write them down, or at least think them out in what is basically writing without a keyboard.

Also I think writing must be a lot faster than vidding. It's not that much longer or harder to write the story than it is to tell it to myself, with the bonus that I won't forget how it goes. And once I've written it, posting is a matter of three keystrokes, so why *not* put it out there just in case somebody else wants to see it? It's worth it for the off chance.

Whereas if I already knew the whole story complete, and it would take ages to transfer it to a form someone else could see? That would definitely raise the bar on when it was worth it.

Even so, it's totally true that I write for readers -- if it were just for me, I would probably not bother -- but that's not quite the same, for me, as community and sharing and talking and enthusiasm and all. I was (co) writing and posting fanfic before I really even knew the interactive part of the community existed, let alone how to find it, or why.

Don't get me wrong, I like the community, I heart the community, but all I really *need* is to know that someone read it, and that someone will read the next one. One reader, regardless of whether they like it or not, as long as they get through to the end. That's enough to complete the writing circuit for me. Message sent, message recieved, therefore, message worth sending is how it works in my brain. (I'm not trying to say that's how it should work in yours, or anything. Just comparing notes.)

Of course, I'm in the Buffyverse, where the talking is still going on. And I'm also in SF book con fandom, where a lot of my sense of community and continuity is located, and because that's not based around a single text I can be fairly sure it's not going anywhere. So that probably helps.

But I guess what I don't understand is how the participation could not be happening. You ask questions and nobody answers? You don't know anyone who likes what you like, and there's no mailing lists or Yahoo groups or whatever to join? I see at least occasional discussion of books that are two hundred years old on my FL, and people are still hashing them over together. How could there be a vaccuum? I don't doubt you for a second, I just don't understand how it happens, in the age of the Internet, that there isn't *a* community of people who like what you like and want to talk about it, or at least, that there aren't enough people who do that you could start one. I can understand how they might not be the same community you're already in, though.

Also I don't seem to draw the line on negativity in the same place as most. I don't like what I think of as negativity any more than the next person, but it's been borne in upon me that my "concrit" or "debate" is other people's "horrid flameware that chased them out of the fandom."

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Also I think writing must be a lot faster than vidding. It's not that much longer or harder to write the story than it is to tell it to myself, with the bonus that I won't forget how it goes. And once I've written it, posting is a matter of three keystrokes, so why *not* put it out there just in case somebody else wants to see it? It's worth it for the off chance.

Whereas if I already knew the whole story complete, and it would take ages to transfer it to a form someone else could see? That would definitely raise the bar on when it was worth it.

Oooo, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about it that way, just that "vidding is harder than writing" in the general sense.

And I'm also in SF book con fandom, where a lot of my sense of community and continuity is located, and because that's not based around a single text I can be fairly sure it's not going anywhere. So that probably helps.

I had a really hard time adjusting from SF fandom participation to media fandom (of course, now when I go to SF cons, I feel totally dissociated and *weird* and I drift around, looking for something that feels familiar) because it was so different. Also, too, the Internet was taking off, whereas everything had been on paper before for me. The community in SF is still wide, i think, in a way that the isolated communities of media fandom are not. But that's just my take on it.

But I guess what I don't understand is how the participation could not be happening. You ask questions and nobody answers? You don't know anyone who likes what you like, and there's no mailing lists or Yahoo groups or whatever to join?

The few groups out there are mostly about posting fic. Only one seems to even allow discussion of fic (you know, it would hurt the writer's feewings...) There's a new LJ community, but I find communities to be useless -- they start with a bang, then no one posts except for fic. I also don't think... well, that LJ is conducive to in depth discussion. Witness this -- all my responses are isolated to each commenter, and the threads are hard to follow, and it's just... this enormous crappy difficult to read mess. Lists are waaayy better for it. But I learned the hard way that to start a list with like minded people means you will have nothing to talk about. And I only have a couple people around me locally who are into what I'm into. In F&F, especially, people are just writing or vidding. They don't respond to general discussions. I think that's not uncommon in many places -- the writers are busy doing their thing, and that's the only thing they want to do. Some fandoms are just like that. I have also been a fandom of one way too many times... people often tell me that if I posted my stories in my fandom of one, others would read them because they like my work and then join me. But you know, that never really happens. For me the myth of the "people will come" thing isn't supported (tho I see it happen for other people); the payoff for such an enormous amount of work hasn't arrived. A success rate of 1 in 8 isn't enough for me to do the work. ;-)
Also I don't seem to draw the line on negativity in the same place as most. I don't like what I think of as negativity any more than the next person, but it's been borne in upon me that my "concrit" or "debate" is other people's "horrid flameware that chased them out of the fandom."

I'm not sure if you can see my post to Superplin above, but I addressed this in that. For me this is a huge issue in terms of generations of discussion -- we've completely lost the ability to distinguish between being challenged or critiqued and beign flamed or attacked. I grew up on Usenet when that was all there was for the Internet -- I know from a flame and I know from harsh discussions. The grotesque oversensitivity and false sense of community that often exists has made it nearly impossible to have large general discussions; everything's private lists that no one talks on because they all have the same feelings, or disconnectd LJ discussions, or what have you.

[moonchildetoo.livejournal.com]

Wow, so much to respond to and agree with, from so many.

I so agree with your initial comments on fandom being about participation and community, and not being able to thrive or remain interested in an fandom "without participation and a sense of friendships or having conversations or whatever". You are not alone in this.

because the way the culture has morphed into this drive-by consume and move on, no contact culture means I have no sense of participation and community any more.

Yes. Yessss! And it makes me sad, and disoriented, and I mourn what I feel I've lost.

The only thing that compels me to produce anything besides the mandate of the fannish gene is being able to connect to people, to inspire conversation or ideas.

When I write, I make a movie in my head -- it's completely cast, it's got a cinematographer, the works. I know exactly how it will sound and look and can see it there. So there's no reason whatsoever for me to actually work hard to produce these things when I can enjoy them on my own in my head

Exactly. Sheesh, in so many ways, you and I have a 'separated at birth' thing going about how we feel about fandom. I have tried to explain this, even to good friends, and I sometimes feel that even though they say they understand, they still may feel that it's a "you really just want positive feedback" issue. But as you say, I get all the enjoyment I really need out of a story by playing it in my head, actually morevividly than writing it down, so I don't "need" to write a story. I write the story in order to share, and I often feel there's nobody to share with any more.

Re: Escapade - I realize this is sacrilege, but it sounds as if you might be happier showing your vids at other cons instead. All cons can't be all things to all people, and some cons are known to specialize in certain things and have certain viewpoints - not just Escapade, but others as well. Maybe you'd enjoy Escapade more as a writer-attendee rather than a contributing vidder-attendee. You could still attend vidding panels and/or even chair one, just not submit your own vids to the Escapade vid show. I know, probably not a solution that will make you happy, but just a thought.

And for additional West Coast cons with vid shows, may I recommend BASCon, which I attended for the first time this past year and thoroughly and totally enjoyed.

sidewinder wrote:

It's partly the ego-stroking, sure, but it's also just feeling connected again to folks who are interested in the same somewhat obscure stuff I am. Without that connection, there's only so long I can sustain myself on my own enthusiasm.

YES, there are people who feel like I do. Just knowing that makes me feel better - thanks!

Thank you so much for posting musings like this in your LJ - it's the only 'slashdom as a whole' discussion I get any more, and it makes me feel connected in a way I've lost the last few years - and I actually do find people who feel like I do about some things, so it's reaffirming as well, that I'm not as alone as I sometimes think I am.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

The big problem with showing vids elsewhere is that I don't attend, as I do Escapade, and so it's a totally disconnected feeling for me. I don't necessarily see the point if I'm not there. Like, I sent Stripped to Bascon this year, and I have no idea what the response was, what people thought about the fandom, if there was interest... it's meaningless. Someone told me that people asked her what the subject was, but I have no frame of reference or further information. So Escapade's still the primary con I go to besides VVC, and that's a different audience by and large.

I've been pleasantly surprised, though, at how many people this struck a chord for. I guess it's my nature to say out loud things others are only thinking, and take the heat for them (because I usually get criticized for how I feel, which is happening elsewhere in private convos or in lists I'm on, for voicing similar concerns). But it's good to know -- and I think important for people to understand that it's not as easy as just calling people who feel left out or disconnected whiners -- there's more going on than that.

[toscas-kiss.livejournal.com]

An interesting post - certainly it made me think the subject over. :-)