Size matters... or maybe not

[gwyn]

I've been surrounded by conversations about aspect ratios a lot lately, having just finished a Firefly vid that uses both series and movie clips to equal degree and because the subject was raised as a potential topic at Vividcon this year. In the past year or so, I've sweated over aspect ratios to an annoying degree, especially when working on movie vids. But the funny thing is, almost no one I know ever notices different aspect ratios in the vids, even when the differences are quite dramatic (say, for instance, a series like The X-Files, which has on DVD the first four seasons in full screen, the last seasons in widescreen TV format, and the theatrical movie in widescreen film format). Since this keeps cropping up, I'd like to poll vid viewers and makers to see what they think about it.

Most of my non-fannish friends who enjoy vids don't notice aspect ratios at all. Only some of my fan friends notice them, and most of those who do are vidders themselves. But even that's not consistent -- one friend who's the most filmically visual person I know never, ever notices aspect ratio changes in vids. I'd like to get as big a sampling as I can, and I don't think my vid-watching friendslist is that huge, so if you felt like pimping the poll in your LJ, I'd love you to death and will buy you a virtual drink at the fannish bar.

For purposes of the poll, I'm going to assume you have a basic familiarity with the concept, and that you at least occasionally watch vids. Aspect ratios here are meant as full screen=the usual size of most TV shows up until the mid- to late-'90s; widescreen TV=the "letterboxed" TV shows common today such as Angel the series after first season, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, and so on; and widescreen theatrical is the kind you see on movie DVDs, typically called a 16:9 ratio, and much more "letterboxed" than a TV series widescreen.

[Poll #698286]

Comments

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Um. This was difficult to fill out. I make one or two vids a year; is that fairly often? I'd say no. I do try to make good vids, so I don't want to tick the 'non-serious vidder' box either. Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this. *g*

And the last question...I do expect vidders to fix the aspect ratio if possible, just like I'd expect them to fix stray frames. But not 'whatever the cost' or 'because I am a tech super-genius'.

I notice aspect ratio, and it often bugs me if it's wrong, especially if the main characters end up looking stretched or squished or there's a moon hanging in the sky that looks more like a lemon. A couple of wide screen shots in a full screen vid or vice versa don't bug me as much.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

LOL. And I was looking for the "I make tons of vids, but I'm not a serious vidder" button. *g*

Hon--No offense

[cattraine.livejournal.com]

But what the hell exactly IS a aspect ratio? Perhaps a definition for us techno phobes?

Re: Hon--No offense

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Aspect ratio is how wide the picture is vs. how tall it is. On some TV shows, the image takes up your whole TV screen, and is very nearly square. On others, there are black bars at the top and bottom, which make it more rectangular/horizontal. Movies are made to fit a movie screen, and can either be that same horizontal rectangle size as TV shows with the black bars, or they can be even wider, shorter rectangles -- almost twice as wide than they are tall.

To make things worse, some TV shows started out as TV-shaped (fairly square) and then added black bars in later seasons (Angel the Series for one... I think West Wing, also? And Highlander vs. Highlander: The Raven). So, if you rip the images off your disks and use some scenes of each kind, unless you compensate for the difference, you either get some images that are squished out of proportion and some not, or else you get some with black bars and some not. These are varying degrees of distracting. I personally find it much more distracting to see people squished out of proportion than I do the variation in black bars. It can ruin or seriously mar an otherwise good vid, for me. The black bars issue won't hurt the vid as much, IMO, especially if the different size clips are grouped together within the vid.

For an example, please see the otherwise very good Jesus Walks, (http://mimesere.livejournal.com/557300.html) a vid where I really enjoyed what the vidder was doing, and desperately wished that half the images were not squishified.

[barkley.livejournal.com]

Apect ratios drive me nuts for a completely different reason! I always, always, always have to look at the DVD box (or perhaps the TV screen) to see what my source is because I can't tell by looking if I have to squish it back down to 16:9. However, when I see other people's stretched vids? I can totally tell!

[par-avion.livejournal.com]

I also couldn't decide what to click on the poll. I have technically made vids, yes, but I tend to identify more as a vid watcher and I don't know that it will ever change. Also, I haven't dealt with differing aspect ratios on a tech level.

As a viewer, I find different aspect ratios very distracting, for a mono-fandom vid. They don't bother me in multi-fandom vids, because my brain is tracking multiple stories anyway.

I don't like it when the people are squished, but I really don't like it when it's the frame size that keeps changing. Particularly the height. If the vidder can make the height constant and only vary the width, then it is somehow less of a problem. (I think that is the opposite of what normally happens).

And it's possible that this is the type of thing that bothers me more when I'm watching vids on my computer screen vs. watching on TV or projection screen. I don't have enough experience with watching varied aspect ratios on bigger screens.

I can get past one or two instances of switching, but if it happens a lot, llike every other clip, I can't pay attention to the vid I am so distracted.

It's totally possible that I'm in the minority on this. I've been known to get distracted when the credits arre a different aspect ratio than the vid.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I don't like it when the people are squished, but I really don't like it when it's the frame size that keeps changing.

I'm glad you brought this up, because it gets at something that I was wondering about in the poll. By "fixing aspect ratios", does Gwyn mean "make the people unstretchy" or "make all the frame sizes the same"?

I can't remember ever having seen a vid where the frame size changes, but I've seen a ton of squished vids, even where all the source is from a single movie, and all the people look too tall and skinny. It does stick out and annoy me when people don't fix that. I have more sympathy when they're working with mixed source and can't figure out how to normalize it.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

I don't have huge heaping issues with a vidder switching from widescreen to fullscreen, but if the vidder doesn't know enough of the craft to make the aspect ratio correct I don't even finish the vid. I've just become overly sensitive to incorrect aspect ratios since joining LJ. If Buffy's face is so narrow that I think I'm looking at a horse, or if Veronica suddenly looks like a two ton truck, it takes me out of the moment.

I think the problem is exacerbated by this limbo we're in, where there's no longer a standardized TV format. Once widescreen becomes the norm I think it'll get better, but right now I have issues watching TV with people when they don't see that the aspect ratio is wrong. I instantly take possession of the remote control, which doesn't exactly endear me to my nearest and dearest. And so I wind up watching TV alone for the most part.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Isn't it "pretty floral bonnet"?

Good poll. I go pimp now.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Could be... but when you're writing at 3:30 am because you can't sleep, quotations don't come easy.

[tazey.livejournal.com]

As a viewer, I tend to dislike squished or overlarge images due to aspect ratio. It does bug me in a vid.

As a vidder, I went the simple way of giving preference to widescreen over 4:3 and applying black bars to the 4:3 footage. Others prefer it the other way. YMMV

[luminosity]

When I started vidding, I didn't notice. Then I got those marvelous anamorphic SVCDs of BTVS, and I *did* notice but didn't know what to do about it. I didn't learn how to change things technically (with Vdub or anthing, although I know it's possible). I learned how to *adjust* stuff within the editing program, using motion, clipping, image pans, zooms, you name it. I still don't really know any better. I just had to find something would fix what was bothering me.

After I just clipped an image from ATS S1 down to widescreen, I realized that I had also chopped off the tops of all the heads (see Prophecy bridge). This really, *really* bugged me, so I recomposed the clip myself the next time, by moving it within the frame and then clipping it. (Calling it "clip" is weird to me, but Premiere is weird. It's actually *cropping* the image.)

I understand that this is a tedious, uneducated, and-I-hesitate-to-even-call-it-a- technique technique, but I've done it a lot lately, e.g., Drum Trip, which took footage from 4:3 and widescreen, and did you even really want to know all of this? :)

Anyway, I *do* notice it in other vids. It doesn't usually bother me except for that brief moment that it pulls me out of the vid, and if a vid really grabs me, I won't care. Good tech is really only used to serve the greater purpose of the story you're telling in the vid, right? If it's a killer vid? Even if I notice it at the beginning, I won't notice it the other umpteem times I watch. [shuts up now]

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

No, I DO want to know! This is actually really interesting to me because i tend to think you are a tech super-genius, and knowing that you're actually applying things at a clip level is fascinating. You and Killa are destroying my perfect world this weekend -- she told me that she doesn't know much about compressions and I tell you, all my illusions were shattered! I'm melting, I'm melting!

I find that for me, the biggest issue I have is when the vidder tries to compensate for different sizes and does it badly. I'd almost rather just have the different sizes if it's not too crazy-quilt, thank squeezy or grainy, blurry clips. I'm planning to leave my Firefly vid alone, i think, and just kind of try to group movie clips with movie clips as much as possible to minimize any jarring effect. I'm really glad you left these comments -- it's exactly what i needed to know.

[thevetia.livejournal.com]

Because so far we haven't had to rip source from DVDs I hadn't been really aware until recently of the technical problems with fixing aspect ratios. (Using an external capture device may not be cutting edge cool, but it's *simple*, like a VCR! No fights between square and non-square pixels.)

I don't like to watch a vid with squishy clips, because the better the vid, the more distracting it is, but it doesn't ruin the vid for me. (Melina's "When I Go" had problems when I first saw it, and I kept mourning that such a fantastic vid wasn't *perfect*. But I kept watching it.)

If the only aspect problems in the vid are clips with letterbox bars and clips without, then I can't see it and I don't care. I really can't see those black bars pop in until I look for them, usually many viewings later.

The only time we messed with fixing the black bars was on "Favourite Friend", because the letterboxing was different on the 2 sources and that, for some reason, was more noticeable than it is with a TV series switching between fullscreen and widescreen.

Gee, I guess it all depends! :-)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I know! Honestly, I know there are a lot of advantages to ripping, but... I'm still fine with capturing the old-fashioned way. It's something I understand because of the VCR days.

I'd rather see sizes bounc around any day than squeezy.

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

Lets put this another way - is it better to go on a first date having rushed out to buy the best clothes, had your hair done, rote-learned witty anecdotes, found out the names of the waiters and the bar staff so it sounds like you know everyone.... or is it better to pick the best clothes from your wardrobe, styled your hair the way you like to, talk truthfully about yourself and treat it as a new and wonderful learning experience for both involved.

This whole aspect ratio thing is just like dating appearances. If what you present to someone isn't up to their standards then all it says is that they are not a person you want to have a meaningful relationship with. The same is true of audiences. It's better to just be confident about your own way of expression. You'll sleep better, make more friends and, ultimately, make the vids you want to make.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Ah, well said. And from a tech genius who wrote the book, too!

[chasarumba.livejournal.com]

My feelings -- yes, I absolutely notice mixed aspect ratios or drastically incorrect sizing (i.e., squishy or stretched people) and it is always distracting to some degree. It's not the be-all, end-all of a vid when I watch, but vidding is a visual medium and those aspect problems distract me from what the vidder is trying to communicate. When commenting on a vid with aspect issues, I generally won't mention it unless 1) they are *very* distracting or 2) I've been asked to do a detailed concrit or 3) I'm betaing the vid.

That said, as a vidder I didn't know squat about aspect ratios (nor was I using an editor that could deal with them) when I started vidding, and I haven't gone back to fix the first two vids that I did before becoming concerned with aspect ratios...water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned, and you hopefully learn as you go. Now that I have a few more technical skills, I feel strongly about doing vids that are presented in a consistent format, whether it's widescreen, fullscreen, whatever.

[dualbunny.livejournal.com]

I couldn't pick in the last section, because I do expect vidders at the point, if they're vidding on computers to handle the aspect ratios. Or at least try. It's definitely one of the things that falls into the tech that isn't totally vital to the vid category, but it does pull me out of the vid a bit when it doesn't addressed. Doesn't mean I won't like the vid. Just means I'll be sort of wishing that since the vid was so good, that the aspect ratios had matched too for the icing on the cake.

In fact, that's pretty much what I see them as. Matching aspect ratios are really yummy icing. ;)

[dualbunny.livejournal.com]

Good god...please forgive all the spelling errors and missing words in that comment... ::headdesk::

[alysscarlet.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much for raising this issue. I am not a vidder (yet) but I watch often and I find incorrect aspect ratios so distracting that I will usually stop watching before the end of the vid, and certainly delete and never watch again. Maybe I'm over-sensitive to the issue, but to me I can't see how the vidder doesn't feel it distracts from their artistic creation to have people stretched and distorted in their videos.

Sorry to sound harsh, but it really destroys my viewing enjoyment and makes me wonder at the competency of the vidder if the aspect ratios are wrong.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Do you mean if the ratio is wrong in terms of people being squeezed or stretched or something? or do you mean wrong in the sense that they're using multiple source and haven't adjusted one way or another? the reason I ask is that for me, the loss of visual quality in perfectly fine clips, once they are (correctly) resized to match the other source a vidder might use, isn't always worth it. Sometimes it is, especially if you had, say, X-Files, where you've got full screen, widescreen TV, and widescreen movie because 3 is way too much, but if you're looking at widescreen TV and widescreen movie, and making the movie slightly larger (again, correctly sized, no squeezy or stretchy), you lose the beautiful composition. But maybe what you're talking about isn't that, but the *badly done* aspect ratios changing.

[abbylee]

I'm not sure if my answers are going to accurately reflect this, so I thought I'd make a comment too.

For me, there is NO excuse for squishing or stretching the source. If the proportions are off, I will not continue watching the vid, no matter who recommended it.

I think that any vidder who is applying colour filters, changing frame speeds, and using different cuts should also be learning how to zoom and/or crop the source to make it as fluid as possible. But I'm much more willing to ignore black lines when it's a newer show and so DVD quality rips aren't available yet.

As well, just like with most things, the more talented an artist is, the better they are at breaking the rules without it distracting from their art.

[ascian3.livejournal.com]

I never care much if the aspect ratio changes between clips in a vid I'm watching, so long as the vid itself is decent. But it drives me up the wall in my own vids, and I'd be very hesitant to release the vid without fixing it. It feels like a cleanup step, like cleaning the paint off the studio floor after painting on canvas.

Usually J and I do a final pass across the vid after we've cut it, pick one aspect ratio (depending on what there's more of, and what seems to work best) and adjust each clip to fit it within premiere. This amounts to a manual pan-and-scan step. (And usually, J does it. I could and would, but I usually don't have to.)

I don't think I'd adjust the clips at capture time, because it would mess with the framing. I'd much rather go on a clip-by-clip basis.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Do you think that it's necessarily worth the trouble if the visual quality suffers (and I mean, just in terms of increasing the size of a 16:9, for instance, to 4:3 widescreen) -- not squeezy people or anything, just fuzzier clips, more grain? I found that when I bumped up the couple of clips from Once More With Feeling I used in my last Buffy vid to full screen, it may have made everything match a lot nicer, but the grain and blur really, really bothered me. I guess it's a tradeoff... maybe I'll never be able to make those folks who want the black bars to be exactly the same happy if I don't fix the ratios of every multi-ratio vid, but I'll probably be happier myself with having more precise, clear, shiny pictures.

I also sometimes wonder if my different expectations have something to do with coming from VCR vidding. I'd much, much rather see pretty source, having spent so many years looking at bad stuff, with different ratios, but I wonder if the folks who learned on computers have different expectations.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

My answers reflect my attitude - I will work myself crazy to fix aspect ratio, because that's me, but I am willing to watch vids without the fix if they're decent anyway.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Now, that would be a nice use of video clips. ;-)

[whereistheluv.livejournal.com]

Well, I am super anal, and I am hard on myself, wanting perfection even though I don't really expect it from other people. To be honest, I studied editing in film school and use Avid to edit with, which makes it pretty easy to fix aspect ratios. It took me a long time to figure out that other people weren't just lazy, LOL, but that their programs just weren't able to easily fix ratios, or they didn't know how. I do think that if I couldn't fix the ratio, I might not make the video. If it was something as big as full screen and widescreen 2:35 film. My main issue is when something that should be the right aspect ratio is squeezed for no reason. Like, it's 16:9 and the vid is 16:9 but it's squished to 4:3 for no reason. I always notice, but think too hard about it if it goes full screen/widescreen and everything is correctly proportioned. But I've seen some great videos that obviously took a lot of work, and it was just disappointing to see it with this huge mash up of aspect ratios that sort of ruined it for me. Anyways I've rambled here, I hope that helps some! It's a good question to ask!

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

This is why I made the poll -- I really am curious. I'm a meta girl from way back, and I always like to know what people are thinking about certain issues. Right now it has a personal impact, but I also want to know for the long run if this subject comes up at Vividcon, so we have some data to work from

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

At a conscious level, I think I notice it more when the frame size changes than stretching or squeezing, which I tend only to pick up on with head shots, while I’m watching a vid. But I suspect I’ve been more distracted by vids, Jesus Walks would be one, that take the distortion option, possibly because of not quite knowing what was wrong at the time.

I think I’d have to go with being wishy-washy and say it depends. Sometimes a frame size change can work positively, the framed shot of Giles from OMWF right in the middle of Polaroid worked nicely as an emphasis. And sometimes when the shot is just the right size as originally framed I haven’t noticed that framing was different from the rest of the vid – in Icebound Stream I only realised the polar bear face after Victoria’s was letterboxed when taking screenshots and it came as a big suprise.

[dzurlady.livejournal.com]

I found it a bit tricky to answer your poll, so I'm going for the freeform comment response instead.
I'm a vidder, and I like to think that I'm serious about it - I put a lot of thought and effort into it - but I've only just finished my first vid and sent it off to beta, and there wasn't really an option for that. Plus, while I'm a vid maker, I'm also a vid watcher.
I personally would work hard to avoid changes in the sizes of the black bars at the top and bottom of a vid (which is what I understand you to be asking, rather than squishing/skewing the image) unless I was doing it in particular to add an effect to a clip, but I think I would be more tolerant of it in a vid I was watching (within reason - if it kept changing every clip I think that would be distracting).
Your issue seems to come down to a choice of what is worse visually - black bars changing size/disappearing periodically, or slight blurryness. Unfortunately, I don't really know the answer! I will say I'm not hugely fussed about things being very sharp, because while it's shiny if it is it's not always possible, and that's just one of those things about vidding. But it's your vid, and it should make you happy, and I don't know how blurry it's actually getting.

[elishavah.livejournal.com]

Hm, I ticked what I ticked as a viewer-only (although I've found myself doing minimal helping-out on a couple vids lately), but really it comes down to "it depends."

Squishy/stretched people bug me. That will actually make me stop watching a vid. And before I even get to multi-ratio vids, I've been seeing it a lot lately on single where the vidder just didn't know enough. This can be really sad and frustrating, because there are some pretty good vids in new fandoms (which have nothing but widescreen to work with) that suffer from this. Anyway, if I'm watching it on my computer, I will then use VLC to FORCE IT FIXED. God, I love that little aspect-ratio option.

When the people are only sometimes-squishy/stretched, well, the vid has to be really good, then. If I can be sufficiently distracted, you win. I'm thinking of vids like "Puttin' on the Ritz" from this last Club Vivid. The aspect ratios were all over the place with the gazillion different sources, and I totally noticed, but I didn't give a damn.

I've also noticed if a vidder crops widescreen down to full, but not always. Depends on how well I know the source, the length of the clips, and also if the crop crowds the screen. e.g., several of my local affiliates broadcast shows in fullscreen that are shot at widescreen and it's painfully obvious...to my eye, anyway. I do graphics, so I may just be sensitive that way. ::shrugs::

So in the end, I guess I can accept the black bars appearing and disappearing in order to preserve the shots-as-intended, although I've never seen a vid where that happens a lot and I'm happy to keep that streak going, but fun-house people can be a deal breaker.

[wychwood]

I'm not sure I would notice changes in aspect ratio very much, particularly if a vid was cutting sharply between clips. But if I did notice, it would probably annoy me.

That said - one thing I do notice and hatehatehate is where aspect ratio is changed between original and finished product, so the resulting vid looks squashed...

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to add about aspect ratios; I suspect they're like any other technical rule, in that a good vid can be the exception, so if a vid is "good" otherwise (whatever that means -- I know, I know, totally subjective, I'm sorry) I won't mind (or maybe even notice?) aspect ratio shifts.

Mostly I'm here to do a happy dance because you said

having just finished a Firefly vid that uses both series and movie clips to equal degree

YAY!!!!!

[mystic-savage.livejournal.com]

Uh...aspect ratio? What's an aspect ratio again?