Size matters... or maybe not

[gwyn]

I've been surrounded by conversations about aspect ratios a lot lately, having just finished a Firefly vid that uses both series and movie clips to equal degree and because the subject was raised as a potential topic at Vividcon this year. In the past year or so, I've sweated over aspect ratios to an annoying degree, especially when working on movie vids. But the funny thing is, almost no one I know ever notices different aspect ratios in the vids, even when the differences are quite dramatic (say, for instance, a series like The X-Files, which has on DVD the first four seasons in full screen, the last seasons in widescreen TV format, and the theatrical movie in widescreen film format). Since this keeps cropping up, I'd like to poll vid viewers and makers to see what they think about it.

Most of my non-fannish friends who enjoy vids don't notice aspect ratios at all. Only some of my fan friends notice them, and most of those who do are vidders themselves. But even that's not consistent -- one friend who's the most filmically visual person I know never, ever notices aspect ratio changes in vids. I'd like to get as big a sampling as I can, and I don't think my vid-watching friendslist is that huge, so if you felt like pimping the poll in your LJ, I'd love you to death and will buy you a virtual drink at the fannish bar.

For purposes of the poll, I'm going to assume you have a basic familiarity with the concept, and that you at least occasionally watch vids. Aspect ratios here are meant as full screen=the usual size of most TV shows up until the mid- to late-'90s; widescreen TV=the "letterboxed" TV shows common today such as Angel the series after first season, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, and so on; and widescreen theatrical is the kind you see on movie DVDs, typically called a 16:9 ratio, and much more "letterboxed" than a TV series widescreen.

[Poll #698286]

Comments

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Um. This was difficult to fill out. I make one or two vids a year; is that fairly often? I'd say no. I do try to make good vids, so I don't want to tick the 'non-serious vidder' box either. Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this. *g*

And the last question...I do expect vidders to fix the aspect ratio if possible, just like I'd expect them to fix stray frames. But not 'whatever the cost' or 'because I am a tech super-genius'.

I notice aspect ratio, and it often bugs me if it's wrong, especially if the main characters end up looking stretched or squished or there's a moon hanging in the sky that looks more like a lemon. A couple of wide screen shots in a full screen vid or vice versa don't bug me as much.

Hon--No offense

[cattraine.livejournal.com]

But what the hell exactly IS a aspect ratio? Perhaps a definition for us techno phobes?

[barkley.livejournal.com]

Apect ratios drive me nuts for a completely different reason! I always, always, always have to look at the DVD box (or perhaps the TV screen) to see what my source is because I can't tell by looking if I have to squish it back down to 16:9. However, when I see other people's stretched vids? I can totally tell!

[par-avion.livejournal.com]

I also couldn't decide what to click on the poll. I have technically made vids, yes, but I tend to identify more as a vid watcher and I don't know that it will ever change. Also, I haven't dealt with differing aspect ratios on a tech level.

As a viewer, I find different aspect ratios very distracting, for a mono-fandom vid. They don't bother me in multi-fandom vids, because my brain is tracking multiple stories anyway.

I don't like it when the people are squished, but I really don't like it when it's the frame size that keeps changing. Particularly the height. If the vidder can make the height constant and only vary the width, then it is somehow less of a problem. (I think that is the opposite of what normally happens).

And it's possible that this is the type of thing that bothers me more when I'm watching vids on my computer screen vs. watching on TV or projection screen. I don't have enough experience with watching varied aspect ratios on bigger screens.

I can get past one or two instances of switching, but if it happens a lot, llike every other clip, I can't pay attention to the vid I am so distracted.

It's totally possible that I'm in the minority on this. I've been known to get distracted when the credits arre a different aspect ratio than the vid.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

I don't have huge heaping issues with a vidder switching from widescreen to fullscreen, but if the vidder doesn't know enough of the craft to make the aspect ratio correct I don't even finish the vid. I've just become overly sensitive to incorrect aspect ratios since joining LJ. If Buffy's face is so narrow that I think I'm looking at a horse, or if Veronica suddenly looks like a two ton truck, it takes me out of the moment.

I think the problem is exacerbated by this limbo we're in, where there's no longer a standardized TV format. Once widescreen becomes the norm I think it'll get better, but right now I have issues watching TV with people when they don't see that the aspect ratio is wrong. I instantly take possession of the remote control, which doesn't exactly endear me to my nearest and dearest. And so I wind up watching TV alone for the most part.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Isn't it "pretty floral bonnet"?

Good poll. I go pimp now.

[tazey.livejournal.com]

As a viewer, I tend to dislike squished or overlarge images due to aspect ratio. It does bug me in a vid.

As a vidder, I went the simple way of giving preference to widescreen over 4:3 and applying black bars to the 4:3 footage. Others prefer it the other way. YMMV

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

LOL. And I was looking for the "I make tons of vids, but I'm not a serious vidder" button. *g*

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Heee. And no. You mean the "I make tons of vids and people think of me as a vidding goddess. I find this disturbing, even though they are right," button. :-P

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

You got the "disturbing" part right. *eyes you suspiciously*

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I don't like it when the people are squished, but I really don't like it when it's the frame size that keeps changing.

I'm glad you brought this up, because it gets at something that I was wondering about in the poll. By "fixing aspect ratios", does Gwyn mean "make the people unstretchy" or "make all the frame sizes the same"?

I can't remember ever having seen a vid where the frame size changes, but I've seen a ton of squished vids, even where all the source is from a single movie, and all the people look too tall and skinny. It does stick out and annoy me when people don't fix that. I have more sympathy when they're working with mixed source and can't figure out how to normalize it.

Re: Hon--No offense

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Aspect ratio is how wide the picture is vs. how tall it is. On some TV shows, the image takes up your whole TV screen, and is very nearly square. On others, there are black bars at the top and bottom, which make it more rectangular/horizontal. Movies are made to fit a movie screen, and can either be that same horizontal rectangle size as TV shows with the black bars, or they can be even wider, shorter rectangles -- almost twice as wide than they are tall.

To make things worse, some TV shows started out as TV-shaped (fairly square) and then added black bars in later seasons (Angel the Series for one... I think West Wing, also? And Highlander vs. Highlander: The Raven). So, if you rip the images off your disks and use some scenes of each kind, unless you compensate for the difference, you either get some images that are squished out of proportion and some not, or else you get some with black bars and some not. These are varying degrees of distracting. I personally find it much more distracting to see people squished out of proportion than I do the variation in black bars. It can ruin or seriously mar an otherwise good vid, for me. The black bars issue won't hurt the vid as much, IMO, especially if the different size clips are grouped together within the vid.

For an example, please see the otherwise very good Jesus Walks, (http://mimesere.livejournal.com/557300.html) a vid where I really enjoyed what the vidder was doing, and desperately wished that half the images were not squishified.

[luminosity]

When I started vidding, I didn't notice. Then I got those marvelous anamorphic SVCDs of BTVS, and I *did* notice but didn't know what to do about it. I didn't learn how to change things technically (with Vdub or anthing, although I know it's possible). I learned how to *adjust* stuff within the editing program, using motion, clipping, image pans, zooms, you name it. I still don't really know any better. I just had to find something would fix what was bothering me.

After I just clipped an image from ATS S1 down to widescreen, I realized that I had also chopped off the tops of all the heads (see Prophecy bridge). This really, *really* bugged me, so I recomposed the clip myself the next time, by moving it within the frame and then clipping it. (Calling it "clip" is weird to me, but Premiere is weird. It's actually *cropping* the image.)

I understand that this is a tedious, uneducated, and-I-hesitate-to-even-call-it-a- technique technique, but I've done it a lot lately, e.g., Drum Trip, which took footage from 4:3 and widescreen, and did you even really want to know all of this? :)

Anyway, I *do* notice it in other vids. It doesn't usually bother me except for that brief moment that it pulls me out of the vid, and if a vid really grabs me, I won't care. Good tech is really only used to serve the greater purpose of the story you're telling in the vid, right? If it's a killer vid? Even if I notice it at the beginning, I won't notice it the other umpteem times I watch. [shuts up now]

[thevetia.livejournal.com]

Because so far we haven't had to rip source from DVDs I hadn't been really aware until recently of the technical problems with fixing aspect ratios. (Using an external capture device may not be cutting edge cool, but it's *simple*, like a VCR! No fights between square and non-square pixels.)

I don't like to watch a vid with squishy clips, because the better the vid, the more distracting it is, but it doesn't ruin the vid for me. (Melina's "When I Go" had problems when I first saw it, and I kept mourning that such a fantastic vid wasn't *perfect*. But I kept watching it.)

If the only aspect problems in the vid are clips with letterbox bars and clips without, then I can't see it and I don't care. I really can't see those black bars pop in until I look for them, usually many viewings later.

The only time we messed with fixing the black bars was on "Favourite Friend", because the letterboxing was different on the 2 sources and that, for some reason, was more noticeable than it is with a TV series switching between fullscreen and widescreen.

Gee, I guess it all depends! :-)

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

Lets put this another way - is it better to go on a first date having rushed out to buy the best clothes, had your hair done, rote-learned witty anecdotes, found out the names of the waiters and the bar staff so it sounds like you know everyone.... or is it better to pick the best clothes from your wardrobe, styled your hair the way you like to, talk truthfully about yourself and treat it as a new and wonderful learning experience for both involved.

This whole aspect ratio thing is just like dating appearances. If what you present to someone isn't up to their standards then all it says is that they are not a person you want to have a meaningful relationship with. The same is true of audiences. It's better to just be confident about your own way of expression. You'll sleep better, make more friends and, ultimately, make the vids you want to make.

[chasarumba.livejournal.com]

My feelings -- yes, I absolutely notice mixed aspect ratios or drastically incorrect sizing (i.e., squishy or stretched people) and it is always distracting to some degree. It's not the be-all, end-all of a vid when I watch, but vidding is a visual medium and those aspect problems distract me from what the vidder is trying to communicate. When commenting on a vid with aspect issues, I generally won't mention it unless 1) they are *very* distracting or 2) I've been asked to do a detailed concrit or 3) I'm betaing the vid.

That said, as a vidder I didn't know squat about aspect ratios (nor was I using an editor that could deal with them) when I started vidding, and I haven't gone back to fix the first two vids that I did before becoming concerned with aspect ratios...water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned, and you hopefully learn as you go. Now that I have a few more technical skills, I feel strongly about doing vids that are presented in a consistent format, whether it's widescreen, fullscreen, whatever.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I guess this is the danger of doing a poll at 3:30-4 a.m when you can't sleep. I didn't realize so many people would conflate the two things in my sleep-deprived brain. What I mean is, if the vidder is using two different sizes of source (two different ratios), like in my case right now, the Firefly series and the Serenity movie at 16:9, and they don't change one of the ratios (like, i don't want to resize Serenity because then the grain and blurriness increase, even if I can get it to match the series size. And I sure don't want to apply a 16:9 type of widescreen filter to the series, because so much of the closeups of the characters would be lost.

But in some of the quetions, I am definitely talking about the problems when vidders try to match different sizes and make them fugly in the process. In two of the Escapade vids, this was a big problem for me -- the Krycek vid for reasons I can't comprehend made all the post-S4 footage full screen, and squeezed the hell of out, rather than just widescreening the pre-S4 stuff. In that case, i think they should have just left it alone -- some clips would be full screen, some wide, and big effing deal, but I know there are people who would bitch at that choice too. Jesus Walks had the same problem with first season Angel and then all the subsequent widescreens.

My personal choice is to just leave them alone if it's more trouble or could result in a crappy picture or squeezy. But I sometimes wonder if people have become so entitled by the tech supergeniuses that if everything isn't the same size, they'll gripe. No one has ever griped to me when I've mixed sources, but... maybe they're mocking me behind my back.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Could be... but when you're writing at 3:30 am because you can't sleep, quotations don't come easy.

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

Hmm, the italics were probably overkill.

Sorry you couldn't sleep, hon. That's no good! I hope it doesn't last.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

No, I DO want to know! This is actually really interesting to me because i tend to think you are a tech super-genius, and knowing that you're actually applying things at a clip level is fascinating. You and Killa are destroying my perfect world this weekend -- she told me that she doesn't know much about compressions and I tell you, all my illusions were shattered! I'm melting, I'm melting!

I find that for me, the biggest issue I have is when the vidder tries to compensate for different sizes and does it badly. I'd almost rather just have the different sizes if it's not too crazy-quilt, thank squeezy or grainy, blurry clips. I'm planning to leave my Firefly vid alone, i think, and just kind of try to group movie clips with movie clips as much as possible to minimize any jarring effect. I'm really glad you left these comments -- it's exactly what i needed to know.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I know! Honestly, I know there are a lot of advantages to ripping, but... I'm still fine with capturing the old-fashioned way. It's something I understand because of the VCR days.

I'd rather see sizes bounc around any day than squeezy.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I've never noticed mixed sources in your vids. So obviously you're doing something right. (:

I don't remember noticing aspect ratio issues in the Krycek vid, but I definitely noticed stretch/squeeze in Jesus Walks, and think the vid could be improved by resolving that. It did take me out a little. But I know mimesere and she's pretty new to this game, and the vid was so good that I felt it overcame that problem.

But thanks for clarifying what you meant. Yes, there *are* issues with trying to make everything into the same aspect ratio. On the few vids I've done with mixed ratios, I've tended to change things according to which ratio was used in more clips: if most of them were 16:9, I'd make the others 16:9. If most were 3:4, I'd make the others 3:4. But there's no good all-purpose solution for it.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Ah, well said. And from a tech genius who wrote the book, too!

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Until the vid I'm currently working on, I too have adjusted the clips' aspect ratios individually in FCP. Until last month, I didn't even know you could do it at the ripping/conversion stage. And frankly, if I find out during this process that doing it at the ripping/conversion stage is more of a pain, I will probably go back to doing it in FCP using the "distort", "crop", and "aspect ratio" settings in the Motion panel.

(:

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

::stands up and applauds::