Sometimes, I really hate fandom

[gwyn]

It always seems as if I have this period of "OMG, I love fandom" that's immediately followed by one of those crashing "OMG, I hate fandom" periods that depress me so much I think about leaving entirely. I left for a while a long time ago, and of course, like a dumbass, came back. No matter how hard I try not to be, I'm a fan; I just wish it didn't have to involve, you know, fandom sometimes.

Two things today on my flist have depressed me so much I can't even find the energy to finish the VVC reports and premieres show review. The first was something I saw on morgan dawn's LJ, that everyone in vidding was agreeing that any song for vidding had to be cut and should clock in at a certain short time. I don't know who everyone in vidding comprises, as I'm in vidding and I don't say that, but whatthefuckever. Blanket statements like that just enrage me, especially when it's sets of people within fandom trying to dictate what everyone should be doing -- and by extension, those who step outside the dictatorial boundaries are lame, or worse. Song length and the specificities of a fandom, the appropriateness of tone and story... those are all individual things for individual vidders, but I guess it must not matter if all the right people believe that's not important. Screw you if you don't edit your song -- you're too lame to vid!

Never mind that this is a matter of opinion. Never mind that this is dismissive of all the work created back in the days when people couldn't even edit songs so they were frequently a lot longer than we may have wished for. If you're not of the opinion that all songs should be under a certain length, then you're just... wrong. If you haven't done this for your vids, then I guess you're just a perfect example of What's Wrong With Vidding.

I don't understand this and it depresses me to hear that (at least, in some place I don't play or from someone I don't read on a list or on LJ) this is the way you must behave if you are even considering your audience's comfort or interests. If you don't edit a song the way people think it should be edited, then you're, what, a failure as a vidder, even if the vid is brilliant? I don't get it.

And then worse, over on cathexys' LJ, there's a discussion about some remix or challenge thing that everyone's all huffy about, and of course, those of us who don't like remixes or don't want to have our stories touched (thank god, again, that I'm not in this psycho fandom and that remix mania hasn't hit my fandoms by and large) are, and I'm not making this up myself, insane, deluded, arrogant, hypocrites, and anti-slash bitches. Yup. If you would prefer not to have one of your stories redone or fixed by someone else who thinks they need to apply their hack touch to your stuff, you're insane. Officially. Because someone who shares a different opinion told you so.

It doesn't seem to matter to anyone who's all over the "everyone who doesn't like remixes sux" that it's a matter of opinion. They keep trotting out the same tired old argument that the folks who steal edits from good vidders use, that since we're creating derivative works ourselves, we deserve to have all our hard work taken by someone else and used for their purposes. It's the same thing, and if you don't agree with that, you're more than wrong, you're stupid and insane and a hypocrite. There are a lot of reasons both for and against that belief -- I'm very aware of what I'm doing when I write fanfic or create fanvids. I'm also very lucky in that I've participated in fandoms where TPTB actively encourage fan works of art off their stuff. It's not a black and white situation, but if you are the kind of person who believes that, and has feelings contrary to the popular belief these days, you're... insane. Or worse. And you're also a bitch, so there.

Differences of opinion don't matter. Because if you don't toe the line, then everyone has to tell you how mind-bogglingly stupid you are. Agree with us, or else! You're creating derivitave works, you haven't got a leg to stand on, you hypocrite! And I don't understand this -- if we feel differently about it, why are we stupid delusional hypocrites? Why, if we feel we've done something original (yes, believe it or not, within the context of using someone else's fictional characters, you can actually create original ideas or themes or plots; I'm sure the writers of novelizations of series-based characters would like to think so, at least) with characters, carefully crafted a story to be just so, are we ev0l if we'd rather not have someone mess with what we've done? Because we used someone else's characters, we've abnegated any right not to have other people tinker with something that might be quite original or unique within the context of utilizing those characters? I don't understand that thinking, anymore than the people who are calling us insane understand our way of thinking.

But the biggest difference is that I'm not calling them names. If they want to remix and find people who are okay with having their plots changed, or having their themes altered to fit someone else's concepts, then that's their fun time. But that doesn't mean that if I don't like it myself, I'm a hypocrite and a moron. Reasons for what I believe have been articulated by much better people than I for decades in fandom; I don't need to get into explaining them because they're out there, and have been, for years. But many of the people on this thread on cathexys's LJ are disturbing to me because not only do they ignore all these arguments that have been articulated, they treat people who believe differently like they are sinister and arrogant, deluded and hypocritical. I don't believe having a different opinion merits this sort of generalization and attack.

There's also the assertion that anyone who objects to this challenge thing because they don't want their het/gen story slashed is... of course, ev0l. God forbid, you shouldn't like slash. As someone who's bifanual, I understand how reactionary slash fans can be, but dudes, someone who doesn't necessarily want to see their own original concept perhaps taken and made into a slash story has a right to that opinion. A show's creator has a right to that opinion, as well -- in Mag 7, that was an overriding factor for the slash archive sites being member restricted. It doesn't necessarily mean people have to follow or agree with the opinion, but they do still have the freaking right to have that opinion. Christ, some people don't like coffee, or rhubarb, or cigarette smoke. And it's their right to not drink lattes, or eat strawberry-rhubarb pie, or to make snotty remarks when they're stuck behind a car with a smoker holding their cigarette out the window and letting it blow into their car. Not everyone who doesn't like slash is an ev0l homophobic. I don't like gen stories most of the time, but that's because I'm heavily relationship focused, not because I hate people who don't have sex.

I'm sure there have been lots of people who've made more than their fair share of snide comments about the slashers in response to this challenge. Does that make it better if the people who like remixes and this sort of challenge respond by hurling all kinds of nasty allegations at them? I'd always believed, back in the beginning of my media fandom experience, that we were all in this together in some way. That as many differences as we had, there was one overriding concept that kept us respectful of others, kept us mindful of the wishes of individual fans, and created the fannish etiquette that people talk about all the time but pretty much never practice these days -- we were outside the mainstream, we were to most people freaks who acted as if TV and movie characters were real. We didn't just watch programs, we analyzed and talked about and wrote fiction around these made-up people. We were the weirdos everyone made fun of. But we stuck together, for the most part, because we were the "other" in the rest of the world, we were brothers and sisters in this wider family of freaks.

Part of that sense of a wider family was in acknowledging that people had different opinions or reactions to things, and the least you could do for someone else in this world of ours was very simple -- ask, and respect their wishes. It doesn't seem that hard, but apparently, if you're not on board with the whole remaking concept, you won't get that slack. You're just mind-bogglingly stupid.

And if you don't edit your songs, you're just a bad vidder, apparently. Gosh, I think that about 95.5% of the vidders out there shouldn't be vidding because they're crappy, but I'm not about to try to make a quorum of people to dictate that they should all stop. It wouldn't occur to me, though, to start calling them all names and lumping them in with edit thieves or anti-slashers or whatever. They are just people I don't think do good work, and fortunately, most of the time, them and me? We don't have to agree at all, because there's room here for both of us.

Or at least until today, I thought that there was room for both of us.

Comments

[mlyn.livejournal.com]

I think there's still room here for both of you. As you said, people have articulated their arguments for decades, which means that this argument has been going on for decades. I agree that the people making these kind of blanket dictatorial comments are pretty selfish and narrow-minded, but their ilk has been around and will continue to be around. The best we can do is ignore them and wait for the storm to blow over.

Or rather, that's an option; the best we can do is prove them wrong. Personally, I think our song choice gets more exciting after the cut, but I'm not sure there's a good cutting point and it is a tad too long. But anyway, I am all for making longass gen vids. *g*

I know you're probably feeling crummy about this, and I'm sorry. *hug*

[morgantree.livejournal.com]

Fuckin' A. Hang in there Gwyn.

Try to imagine (and I think this is really true) that fandom is much bigger than this kind of crap, and that the most numerous folks in fandom are also the least visible--we aren't vidders or writers, and we don't generally start or contribute to kerfluffles. We just love the stories/vids we love.

People with a bone to pick and a hankering for dictatorship are always very noisy. But we, the quiet consumers of fandom, are out here. And so f-ing grateful, every day, for quality work. Like yours.

*throws roses, blows kisses*

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i'm so sorry you felt that this was the tenor of the conversation (and really, there've been quite a few more folks coming out against the free for all since you posted, i think). i think not having read the posts that spawned my response and that of many people who commented you might not have necessarily seen the vitriol spewed on the com and its mods.

Ultimately, I think most people for themselves still ask and would ask and totally respect the fact that people don't want their stuff touched (for whatever reason). As I said, philosophically, I think everything is part of the big ursoup from which we draw inspiration, but since we all have to hang with one another, it's only nice and polite to respect others (and asking permission is part of that).

What I read the community saying is that the community itself didn't enforce it, thus placing the burden of deciding for or against on the individual fan. The backlash against that was nasty, calling people plagiarists and thieves.

As you point out, this is a longstanding debate, but when people get called out by name and insulted simply for taking one position rather than another, I cannot accept that (even if I were to side with their argument). Fwiw, though, there've been some great and thoughtful posts on both sides (I've linked to a couple) that have moved beyond the namecalling and total binaries.

I do feel horrid that this would make you feel unhappy fannishly, b/c discussions should make us think and change or reassert our opinions and stances...not make us hate fandom!

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right -- I did not see the original comm discussion about it, just the responses to you comments (which, btw, I had no trouble with, because I believe you approach things from an aspect of fannish interest in a more meta way, and I know you would never insinuate that someone was insane for having a different opinion) on your LJ. It was the tenor of those responses that really depressed me -- one person lumping all of us who aren't into the idea together and calling us hypocrites, etc. When I tried to explain where I was coming from, I got euphemisms like "mind-boggling" and such, which are essentially less confrontational ways of saying "moronic", let's face it.

There are people I'm friendly with who love to share their stories for remaking, their vids, and who wouldn't even care if someone took their vid edits. While I might think that's playing with fire for myself, it wouldn't occur to me to call them names for doing it. I feel very proprietary and can't imagine being that cool with it; I just always thought the thing was was that we didn't have to have the same opinion about it. That's what's been so discouraging to me today -- this idea that if you don't do what others think you should do, you're... less. Of everything.

But I'm also feeling very fragile lately, as I often do when I come back from VVC, feeling out of place in general. I probably shouldn't have responded on your thread and let it stay in your LJ, in your fandom, where it belongs, and where I don't play (the mysteries of SGA are legion to me!). I was kind of setting myself up there, and I guess I knew that.

I didn't realize folks had been singled out by name. SGA sometimes seems like the fandom of psychos from far away -- whenever I read through my flist, it's like there's this moving thread of kerfuffling, and so I get part of the picture before it morphs into another kerfuffle of a different stripe. And it teaches me that I should just not comment because I will never know all of the players, and the fufflers, and the true picture of what's happening.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

No, that's OK...I think so very much is underground and just boils up in nasty ways every once in a while, but the battle lines are quite clearly drawn.

I think you may have suffered from association syndrome where people were still somewhat irate about the excessive aggression and responded in a similar tone where you came in just wanting to keep your stuff and asking for a little bit of courtesy...

I think now that the fervour on both sides has died down a bit, more balnced and reasoned posts are coming out, but I know that when yo're feeling in a weird fannish place, it's hard to withstand even one aggression let alone getting drawn into a debate that wasn't yours...

FWIW, I think everyone should comment, and on the whole, I'm glad my journal tends to be a fairly reasonable place where people can have differing opinions (as there are several threads right now that are involved but not yet to the point where I'd feel the need to freeze, which I've only ever done once and that was Buffy folks, not SGA :-), but I think we were all a bit geared up due to the speed and emotions of that initial post and the responses.

SGA is not so much psychos as there seem to be oldoldold grudges brought out and up again and again...old fundamental differnces in how to approach fandom, maybe even personal animosities clothed in the guise of theoretical or aesthetic debates. The fact that the mods got called out and people dissed the com in general indicates to me that this wasn't just about the issue at hand.

As for the feeling out of place...I always wonder whether there is "a place"...though I do get a little bit what you mean in terms of vidding, b/c I've heard other say similar things. But as long as you love what you do and people love what you create??? *hugs*

[klia.livejournal.com]

All I can say is, I've seen things heading in this direction (ficlets/vidlets/remixes of both fic and vids) for a while, now, and I'm not happy about it, either. I'm just trying really hard to stay inside my little fannish bubble as much as possible, because otherwise, I get way too upset way too often. :P

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Bubbles are good. I think what I need is to become the fan in the plastic bubble -- no germs can get in, I can't touch... it would be easier for me that way.

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

As a libertarian, I'm against all sorts of blanket diktats.

But personally I'd have to say that the length of a vid would not stop me from downloading or enjoying it and if I was talented enough to vid, I probably would not edit the song if I didn't think the vid called for it. Sort of like, um, WRITING! A story's as long as it needs to be, right?

As for the remix thingie... yeah. I would expect people to ask permission or at least to credit. And I think that there are some writers in some fandoms who do more with the characters than the original source material ever thought of doing. It's just as valid as original fic. Why are we still apologising for writing fanfic?

*hugs*

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

It seems as if most of the folks who like remixing think that anyone who doesn't fall into one of three very bad categories. A lot of them seem determined to not just disagree (because just disagreeing I guess would be too simple), but to make sure you know you are wrong and bad and wrong. That's where I immediately get my dander up. Believing you are right doesn't *make* you right, and insulting, demonizing, and fighting with people doesn't make you any righter, either.

And short songs? I just want to shout at people that if you think all vid songs should fit your ultimatums? Get over yourself. Maybe everyone just has too much time on their hands after a con and they have to think up problems to add to the communities.

[blue-larkspur.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about vidding or these problems, although I think blanket statements about how everyone should act are... problematic. BUT, the reason I'm commenting is that I'm watching Prison Break for the first time ever, and William Fichtner is on it, and he's great! And I know you like him. So maybe that can be something cheery for the end of your day, if you get to watch it.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Wasn't he great? It really livens up the show for me... I tried to watch it last year but it bored me so much, despite lots of men, men, and more men. I couldn't figure out how a prison show could be so boring! But with them on the run, and such a clever lad as Fichtner chasing them... I think it's set to be much more interesting. And his eyes were just so, so blue, and that suit looked fantastic on him... yes, it definitely made the end of the day better than the beginning.

[nwhepcat.livejournal.com]

When fandom threatens to drive me batshit, I think about all the good things I've gotten from it. One of my best friends and road trip partners, autobadgirl. huzzlewhat, who's made a huge difference in how I feel about Wisconsin (and also nikitangel and carolyn_claire, though I get to see them much less). When I lived in the Northwest, there was tiashome, whom I miss very much. (And who introduced us!) Actually, Tia and I got to know each other in RL due to a kerfuffle. Fans were doing their pre-season fannish frictiony thing, and Tia announced she was taking a break from LJ, and I emailed her to say she'd be missed and to come back when she was ready, and that led to our first get together. So even kerfuffles can have their silver linings, though they do suck a lot of energy, don't they?

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Wow, silver linings for kerfuffles! That is absolutely true in this case -- I got to know you and varina8 and m'lyn, and I might never have met everyone otherwise. I had a great fannish weekend in some respects -- a bunch of us, through LJ, got together to work on one friend's house, who has breast cancer and just recently had surgery after they'd started prepping for painting. It was like whiplash to come back on a Monday and see all this nastiness after a weekend of people pulling together to help someone else.

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

just a brief drive by remidner that this happens after every VVC and Escapade. Someone states a general principle about XXXX, and then we all start gnawing on it until we work out something that makes more sense.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

It's almost like it's one more reason people can give to dismiss you -- "you should have edited your song, therefore, I won't watch your vid." Grrr.

[deejay.livejournal.com]

Whoa...ummm...uhhh...and here I was hoping to remaster 'Deteriorata' someday. Huh. Anyway, it's a really long song, but the vid still holds up pretty well throughout. Soooooo, exactly which parts would I now be expected to chop out of it in order to not be considered a "bad vidder"...?

*blinks in honest confusion*

Re: Deteriorata

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Deteriorata is a classic and it does hold up very well - and I'd dearly love for you to remaster it - or indeed any (preferrably all!) of your vids. And cutting anything out would be a crime.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I know -- that's exactly my point: what a convenient way to dismiss all the old vids from the past. "Your song was too long, I won't watch the vid." Whatthefuckever. Almost makes me think I should take There's No Way Out of Here off the MC remasters DVD and off the web site and hide it in a box. It's over five freaking minutes. Obviously it makes me a bad vidder.

There's No Way Out of Here

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Don't even consider it! And I'm not the only one who loves that vid. Proof positive from this year's VVC con reports below. And I've only started reading this year's VVC reports; if this year is like past years, there will easily be a couple hundred more con posts that I'll end up reading, so I'm sure I'll come across more positive recs/reviews.

From Melymbrosia:
Miscellaneous vids I hadn't seen before
Gwyneth, "There's No Way Out of Here" (multi)
What's even more incredible than the action and despair packed in is that this somehow, despite the refrain, isn't a hopeless vid; it's powerful and empowering and I love it more than I can possibly say.

From Vonnie K:
"There's No Way Out of Here" (BtVS, X-Files, La Femme Nikita) by gwyneth: I'd seen this vid before, but again, I marvelled at how the vid tied together the story of these three disparate women so well. The parallels are uncanny. The thing I love the most about this vid though, is that despite what the song says, despite all the terrible things that befell them and the fights that were forced upon them against their will, these women owned their fates and never stopped struggling. The vid was all about Scully, Buffy, and Nikita being trapped, yet I found it oddly empowering. Non-comedic multifandom vids rarely appeal to me, yet this one did, with a clear thematic line and great clip choices.

[deejay.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...perhaps we should all start putting the running time at the beginning of every vid so that impatient viewers with entitlement issues can be warned in advance that they may want to leave the room or skip over it on the DVD collection. =/

(100 words or less fanfic is called a drabble...would a 100 seconds or less long vid be called a vabble, or what?)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

When Jo first showed her Band of Brothers vid to the aria Ebben? Ne andro lontana from the opera La Wally, at an Escapade show many years ago, it was the same year that a looong vid for a super popular fandom showed. The other vid wasn't especially well cut; it was a first time effort and kind of showed with a lot of similar length shots, very long clips, etc. And I think it could have felt a lot shorter if the clips had been edited more, possibly. But Jo's vid clocked in at over 7 minutes, and people kept telling her afterward that there was no way her vid was longer than that other one! I think that's the best example of how it has everything to do with the vidder, the story, the technique, and the type of song, and nothing to do with overarching dictates that take no individuality into consideration and bitch just for bitching's sake.

That's what galls me, really -- the idea that you can stomp on the individual situations of the vidders, that you assume the vidders made no consideration of whether the song might benefit from cutting or not. Like you said, there are vidders we can come to trust, we know that they'll think about what serves the vid best, and we can't assume that if a song wasn't cut to our liking, it's just because the vidder didn't think about it or want to bother or whatever. Why do people want to assume the worst? That's where I get lost.

Fans dictating to other fans

[valkyrie4clex.livejournal.com]

I empathize with your being upset by this attitude that some fans (hopefully not most) exhibit when "they" decide how a thing should be done - vids or stories or artwork. Vids need to be as long - or short- as the person(s) creating the vid want/need it to be to create the effect they are trying to make - be it humor, sadness, romance,whatever.
I'm only a viewer of vids but I've been watching them for @ 20 years - some DO seem to be too long, but that's usually when I don't like the song or the fandom. If I want them shorter or longer, I need to look for the themes/songs/shows/or vidders that I enjoy - experiment watching new ones, and if I don't care for a particular style or content just move on to someone else's vid. It by no means implies the vidder SHOULD have made it a different length or with different cuts to make ME happy - unless I'm being ASKED to critique or Beta.

If I have a problem with that, I should be making my own vids. Since I don't, I try to show my appreciation for someone taking the time to tell a story and sharing it with me by being polite at a vidshow- sitting and waiting until the next one comes along that may personally have more appeal for me. I ran the programming at a few cons and remember having to ask people to be patient - their "show" would be coming up during the vidshow -they'd just have to wait.

This reminds me of a period when I was very angry with "fandom". Friends had gone to Media West after the 1st season of WAR of the WORLDS (TV) had aired. I asked them to be on the lookout for good pictures and any slash zines(see how old I am making myself- ZINES!!) they could find for WOTW. They called me from the con to tell me that "the people in charge of the fandom" had decided there was not going to be any slash in WOTW - "they" didn't want the slashers to ruin the show for them. I remeber being shocked at first - I thought maybe it was people from the network or something but they said no - and named a few of the fans who "were in charge of the fandom". Then I was angry - when was the election held that put these people in charge of anything!! I certainly hadn't voted and felt I had just as much a right to be in the fandom as these people that were being listed for me. I asked my friends to find out if the THOUGHT POLICE would come after me if I imagined slash for the characters. (Fortunately, some people who do write decided they would write slash in any fandom they wanted to whether certain people liked it or not.)

So I hope you continue to make your vids as long or as short as you like. I've never sat with a timer or stopwatch timing a vid I was enjoying and then judging it based on that. If I enjoy it, it's good for me - whether it's 2 minutes- 4 minutes - or a cute quickie of only 1 minute.
Please don't be upset by "the people in charge of the vidding" - do what makes you happy and I'm sure there will be people out here to watch them. I'll be one of them because I don't remember the election that put people in charge of vidding either.

About the fanfic, if people are going to redo someone elses' story, I don't know what can be done to stop them. It would be polite for them to admit that is what they are doing and refer the reader back to the original material and of course, not try to make money off it. I remember being at a con (again-many years ago) where some people had taken some British BLAKE'S 7 stories; printed the stories with a dfferent authro's name; stapled colred paper on as covers and were selling them as their own work! This was very early in B7 fandom in the USA and I think they thought no one there would have read the British fan stories. That was another time I was angry but it didn't spoil my affection for B7 itself.
Anyway, hope you start feeling better.