Meta-ing again

[gwyn]

I haven't said anything about Civil War because historically, people really haven't been interested so it doesn't seem worth it, but I did just write a long honking meta piece on Tumblr about this one thing that's been bugging the shit out of me since the first trailer came out, and that I'd really hoped the movie would address, but didn't. Not that I expect the imaginary reader to be interested in that either but hey, it's out there and you can read it if you want there since I'm having so much trouble copying and pasting it here. I'm up for discussion here but not if you're going to scream at me, I don't have the spoons.

Comments

[devilc]

I couldn't agree more. UN Oversight would've meant the Team never did anything.

[gwyn]

I think there's a good plan out there--I just don't think it's this plan.

[twistedchick]

I have read your Tumblr piece, and I have no argument, just full agreement. They should have known. The moviemakers should have had the balls, if they were going to drag the UN and other RL situations into the movie, to do their homework, point out just how bad it could be and put that into the plot. The aircraft carrier Enterprise and the starship named after her could be driven through the plot hole together, dancing a tango, with plenty of room left over.

You are right.

[gwyn]

I get wanting to take the easy way out--we could spend ten minutes bringing these examples in or spend ten minutes of Tony's gross uncanny-valley memory porn or hanging with Spider-Man, so… But for me it was just a huge hole that wasn't addressed. I wish they'd made up a UN style organization that we couldn't point to as problematic, the way they made up the World Security Council.

[kore]

I get wanting to take the easy way out--we could spend ten minutes bringing these examples in or spend ten minutes of Tony's gross uncanny-valley memory porn or hanging with Spider-Man

Haaaaah <3

(Someone said of Tony's memory presentation, "Worst Parent's Night project ever")

[dine]

there's nothing but truth in that piece - it should have been addressed in at least some fashion by *someone* in the movie

[gwyn]

Yeah, I mean, I get taking the easy way out, as I said to twistedchick above, but…for me it was a serious flaw.

[goodbyebird]

Yuppppp. Thanks for writing out some actual facts about the fuckery committed by these so-called peacekeeping forces and the bumbling douchebags that are often in charge of them.

No way would I have signed that document. But alas, I guess they didn't want to bring real world politics quite that into it :/

[gwyn]

i've seen some interesting reblogs with rebuttals and arguments and such, including one person who really took me to task for ignoring Tony's PTSD, and I don't disagree with the people who've said they're the best we've got in this world today and that there really were two equal sides in the issue. But…I can't agree with them. I get their point, but I can't agree, not after the stuff I've read (I didn't even bring up the sexual abuse and trafficing scandals).

I just wish that if they're not going the route of making up a UN-like organization without the baggage, they at least could mention these issues.

[kore]

Did you see the Abigail Nussbaum smackdown for "but Tony's PTSD!" ? It was glorious. I mean, "but Tony's PTSD!" has been his major motivator since fucking Iron Man at this point. (And then I've seen people going, well this film is a criticism of emotionally unstable white guys who have too much power, and I'm all HAHAHAHAHA NO I don't think so. Maybe that MIGHT have been what they were going for. Some. But to me the final product really did not seem like that at all.)

(and even if it were, if I want stories about emotionally unstable white guys who have too much power and can end peoples' actual lives because of it I can TURN ON THE DAMN NEWS)

[batdina]

I read this on a reblog earlier today (so some people are reading it ...) and completely agree with it all.

it's a good thing I only watch for aesthetic reasons ...

[gwyn]

Yeah, I have no idea how/why people are finding it, but obviously some people are interested in it, which is a change of pace!

I wish I could turn things off. This fandom has consumed me so much.

[dorothy1901]

My personal theory is that Tony didn't realistically expect the Sokovia Accords to result in good crisis management. Basically, what he wanted was to feel less guilt about the inevitable "collateral damage" that accompanied Avengers-level crises. If he was 'following orders,' then maybe Alfre Woodard would go yell at someone else. It's stupid and it's not in character for the guy who boasted of "privatizing world peace", but that's the impression I got.

[gwyn]

I actually like that a lot!! And I understand him and Natasha wanting to keep a hand on the wheel. That's sound. But throwing in with Ross and unquestioningly demanding the signing is just…I don't know.

[kore]

I want a recut of the movie focused on Natasha's realpolitik skillz with her realizing that Tony is an unpredictable powder keg and so is Steve and so is Ross and then OH HEY, BUCKY! and deciding to keep her enemies closer and also somehow figure out some way of keeping her unruly bros from punching each other to death. With Wanda and Sharon's help. #TeamWidow

[kore]

That piece is good and you are fucking smart and whoah, 400 notes! Go you!

Also anyone who wants to scream at you can get punched in the dick by Bucky's metal arm. And shredded by T'Challa's claws.

[gwyn]

Yeah, I was a little surprised when I woke up this morning and saw there were notes on it. That…has only happened once before. I've had some interesting rebuttals and some nasty ones. But they're all fascinating to read. And some people have made really good points.

[kore]

It's interesting to me it's provoking so much intellectual meta -- from what I remember post-TWS everyone exploded with BUCKY FEELS (OK that sounded less messy in my head), and I haven't seen as much of that this time around, or maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong places (am also pretty much completely off Tumblr unless someone links me to something). It felt like there were a lot of opportunities for some big emotional moments with Steve and Bucky -- the elevator, the original reunion, the Quinjet -- but they kept getting cut short so they could be stomped flat by a big action sequence.

(And boy am I getting sick of people going "Well why are you expecting emotional drama in an action movie." TWS did it. Fury Road did it. The fucking Fast and the Furious films had more emotion and slash potential than Steve's last movie! -- Bah. Sorry, I just really did not enjoy this film and I'm trying to keep from being bitter all over everyone else's space. sigh. Apologies.)

[grammarwoman]

I left this open until I got my huge CA:CW brain dump out of the way, so sorry for the late response. You have such a huge valid point there; kudos for articulating it in such detail!

My objections to the Accords were basically 1) The world governments are still riddled with HYDRA, and 2) How is an international committee going to respond to the world being invaded RIGHT NOW?

So to riff on yours: current real-world corrupt UN + MCU HYDRA influence = HELLO THERE EVIL WHICH NO ONE CAN TALK ABOUT. *sigh*

[hypertwink.livejournal.com]

Great read. It's more coherent and intelligent than me, who just thought with "Agreeing on takeout is hard, and you want me to believe that 116 countries agreed on a document that thick in a span of a few days...seriously?!"

This just proves to me that
1) Winter Soldier is still the superior movie.
2) RDJ and Kevin Feige fucked up this movie by hijacking it for their own nefarious purposes, and
3) Justice for Captain America: The Search for Bucky aka Friendship is Magic roadtrip movie.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think a lot of your happiness with the movie depends on how much of RDJ's bloated ego and Kevin Feige's complete boner for all things RDJ you're willing to accept. I also really felt like that tag was specifically designed to quash Stucky shipping.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Well, most people are stupid, and they accept things presented to them by a huge company at face value, so...

[mackiemesser.livejournal.com]

My agreement with this is complete! While the UN has done many good things, they have fucked up a considerable number of things, too, so to have a force like the Avengers tied to something like that...Ugh, so very many ways it could go wrong.

I kinda figure that Tony was, to borrow from another fandom, emotionally compromised and so should never have been involved so officially and authoritatively. I do totally get why the gov't was eager to use someone that vulnerable to push their agenda, which, of course works with your meta about why the Accords were a bad idea.

While Steve is also off balance, he still has some pretty clear analysis of how easily this could be fucked up, which everyone seems to dismiss by saying he's only thinking of Bucky. I mean, I thought he explained his concerns pretty clearly?

(Also, this is where I think fandom's decision to ignore the Hulk movies kind of impairs the ability to evaluate the Accords, because, after all, the dude presenting them as a good idea literally drove Bruce Banner to the ends of the earth because he wanted to turn Bruce into a lab rat, had tanks and missiles firing on at a college campus, and created the Abomination without any hesitation. As if that fucker had any perspective on appropriate force!)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Fanom has decided (the people coming into Cap fandom from Iron Man, and Iron Man apologists) that Steve is a vigilante, which is hilarious since Steve has never acted as a vigilante (I think they just accept Ross's term without ever bothering to look up what it means), but you know who has? Tony. His first act in the suit was prime vigilante behavior. I know that most people are dumb, but this is kind of on a terrible new level. I wish to hell that people who don't like Steve weren't invited into this fandom by putting Tony into it so horribly.

Yeah, I get that not a lot of people saw the Hulk movies, but if they watched the Avengers ones, they know damn well what terrible things happened to Bruce.

[mackiemesser.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it comes down to something as simple as people thinking Tony's "cool," Steve's "square," and therefore Tony's right? For all that Steve is actually younger than Tony, he's had experiences with government agencies that Tony can't even comprehend, so his ability to smell a rat is the Accords is something people should pay attention to.

No doubt; they should have figured out that no one runs like Bruce did and distrusts the government like he does if they haven't been through some heavy shit.

[hafital.livejournal.com]

I hope there was something you enjoyed about the movie. I loved it, but I confess I don't particularly need it to make real world sense. :) I take 'em as they give 'em. So, I'm an easy sell, and went into it expecting ridiculousness and got rather less than I worried about. I mean, even TWS made no sense to me, let alone AOU. CW seemed to plug right into that, so to me it was all right in canon. I understand being disappointed though, so I hope you had something in the film to love.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Ridiculous I could handle. Watching a bunch of people come into my fandom and attack characters I love because of their suspicions about a seriously shady event, I don't like so much. The whole thing has made me really sad.

[daria234.livejournal.com]

Agreed- the idea of oversight is fine, but the idea of UN oversight and like the UN is just universally accepted as a functioning organization much less a moral authority...

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, it'd take less than ten minutes of research to find that out. I think if they'd maybe created a fake organization that's the UN except in name only, so they weren't tied to that real-world baggage, could have worked. It's better when they create fake things like the World Security Council.